I'm not sure if I read this somewhere and it may be completely wrong but does Stabil{for instance}, work by creating a lighter density barrier layer on top of the gas column thereby acting as a barrier between moisture laden air and ethanolized gas? And if that's how it works, is that all it is meant to do?
Not sure about the breaking down of the scientific aspect, but I have been using Stabil, as well as SeaFoam in all my small engine gas, 2 and 4 cycle, for ever since I can remember ... never once did I ever have an issue with gas in any of my machines, from season to season ... and I leave the gas in, never drain it. I do periodically start them just to keep things moving.
I'm sure Googling the scientific breakdown would reveal something.
Ethanol is only a problem if you've got non-compatible rubber parts in the fuel system and/or get too much water in the fuel (it'll harmlessly handle small amounts better than pure gas). With proper stabilization I've had both ethanol and non-ethanol gas in equipment for 6+ months with no issues.
So do you use E10 to save money over non ethanol gas? If so are you adding the cost of the stabilizer you use? The problem with ethanol is it attracts water and also that it separates from the gasoline over time. I'd rather run ethanol free in everything, no stabilizers needed.
I use them mostly interchangeably depending on availability. But I stabilize any fuel that I'm not 100% sure will be burned off within a month or 2, so any E0 bought for small equipment around the house gets stabilized. Considering I only go through 10 - 15 gallons / year for the mower and snowblower, it's cheap insurance to make sure I've always got good fuel.
The ethanol moisture thing is both good and bad. The good is that it acts just like the dry-gas stuff that used to be somewhat common and absorbs any little bits of condensation in the tank so they get passed through instead of puddling up and causing issues. The bad is that if you get too much water in the fuel, it separates and becomes junk.
You guys are correct about ethanol absorbing water. It also only has about 60% the efficiency of gasoline, producing less heat, therefore not pushing the piston down in the cylinder as hard, and a slower burn, thats why its used as an octane boost. It causes less power and lower fuel mileage. It has to be run a lot richer to be more effective. It is more of an "Inert" ingredient that adds a little bit of oxygen to the fuel mixture and causes a "Lean" condition.
Your actual "Stabilizer" surrounds the fuel molecules to slow the atomic/molecular breakdown of the molecules of the fuel.
Once the molecules breakdown by certain atoms jumping out of the molecule, they become scattered and the fuel wont burn properly and the breakdown leftover byproducts become sludge basically.
Some of the really small carbs are built from pretty much garbage materials with no regard to alcohol compatibility, etc. So yes, they have issues if fed anything less than the most perfect fuel in the world.
Absorbing water right from the air is only an issue with excessive ventilation. Personally, I've never had an issue with E10 fuel and properly fogged carb sitting for 6+ months without having been run dry. I'm betting the fogging oil is enough to keep things from getting cruddy in there. Mind you, that's only on stuff down to lawnmower size (and up to multiple 750 cfm quadrajets). Never tried that treatment on something like a chainsaw.
Your fogging oil coats the metal to help prevent corrosion/oxidation when the metal come into contact with the air, and protects the metal.
The fogging oil rinses off easily with gasoline when the fuel is turned on.
Same here, have not had any problems with the E10 yet causing issues, but I do maintain my equipment.
"Stored" OPE fuel here gets stabilizer, thanks to a long history of doing the same with marine engines. Those had more water to absorb, longer residence time in the tanks, and they never get run out completely at least not on purpose. For the snowblower I use E10 with stabilizer until winter blend fuel shows up at the local stations, then use that with stabilizer. The LCT engine manual recommends shutting the fuel off and running out the carburetor before any storage if the fuel isn't stabilized. That's easy to do regardless of stabilizer, and there's no good way to know when it will snow next anyway. Spring pre-storage prep includes actually draining the tank and the carburetor bowl, because it's easy and makes sense. Fuel that isn't in there won't corrode anything, won't varnish up anything, won't make any white or green slime to plug a jet stack, etc.
Local winter-blend premium is E0, although that's not widely known. The combination of cold and altitude makes that option a good idea. The macine sits in the climate-stable workbay for storage between uses. I usually slide it outside long enough for the bucket-impeller-chute to freeze before starting, but the engine and fuel are still relatively warm so no issues even with the E10.
Even if the stabilizer doesn't actually do anything, there's some peace of mind there for me. I haven't had any carburetor issues on small equipment when I use stabilizers, and at this point I'm good with that success. The cost-per-gallon vs the aggravation factor of doing unplanned carb cleaning is pretty simple for me. As much as I love fiddling with small-engine carburetors while it's snowing outside, I'll go with the Cheap Insurance.
That real gas is too expensive something like $20 a gallon. No way will I purchase that for all my year round yard work.
I have 40 gallons of gas in 8 5 gallon jugs in the garage year round because of an emergency generator that I use from time to time. This fuel is what I use in all my power equipment.
I've had a carburetor that was treated with red stabil become rusty while it sat for 1 or more years in one snowblower bowl so the ethanol is a real problem. I now treat my 91 octane fuel with blue "marine" stabil and add dry gas to each 5 gallon can. For the 2 cycle engines I also add sea foam. In addition to this I rotate the fuel every 6 months and pour the unused fuel into my truck. I drain the gas in the snowblowers after the season is over. I have way too much surface area to hand shovel my driveway and sidewalks!
The blowers start on one pull every year. I don't have any issues now. I may be over reacting to the gas procedures I follow but my replacing carbs are a thing of the past.
The reason I keep the fuel for the generator is because if the gas station has no power I will have a cold house which my wife would not appreciate.
I'm starting to think the carb issues have more to do with old gas than the ethanol. I too have not had problems using E10 for years, though with stabilizer. I am reading more and more about how many compounds are in modern gasoline (for good reasons including start-ability, emissions, etc), and how volatile these compounds are (evaporate more easily than the base gasoline). Nearly every carb issue I have worked on is from sitting around for years, so it is impossible to know if it is just old age or because of the ethanol.
got a definition to go with that? i know anything with ethanol over 30 days could be considered old and will start breaking down which seems stupid to me. should last at least 6-12 months before breaking down. also ethanol seems to also dry out the metering diaphrams in small engines. small 2 stroke engines that have sat on the shelf since pre ethanol will usually fire right up when you add new fuel where new machines seem like you rarely get 5 years out of them before you have the metering diaphragm dry out and stop working. i have picked up quite a bit of nice equipment from the curb that just needed a metering diaphragm and they work as good as new. one of these days i might even just have to buy a bunch of metering diaphragms and expose them to ethanol and ethanol free gas and see what happen. i know all the new stuff parts are suppose to be e10 compatible but it really don't seem like it.
Hey crazzy: I try to use up my E10 OPE gas within 3 months, but some of my 4 stroke machines go up to ~ 9 months at times. I think that without any treatment, more than 6 months can start causing problems with E10 (just my guess, based on my experiences). This is with the 4 strokes, I think you are right the the 2 stroke engines with diaphragm carbs are much more picky on the quality of gas. I try hard to keep that gas very fresh. I even use the expensive bottled gas for my chain saw, since it sits unused for 6 months alot.
This is a real hard topic to exactly quantify, since there are so many variables. Everyone has difference experiences. One issue that I see alot is unsealed gas cans in many neighbor's garages. This leads to the volatile compounds evaporating quickly, and water vapor being readily available to condense, making the gasoline deteriorate quickly.
I tend to agree with proper maintenance, and go with works for you in terms of additives. Which reminds me, I need to get some more Stabil.
I think you are right the the 2 stroke engines with diaphragm carbs are much more picky on the quality of gas. I try hard to keep that gas very fresh. I even use the expensive bottled gas for my chain saw, since it sits unused for 6 months alot.
i feel like even keeping the gas fresh in them does not always to it. when they sit in contact with ethanol fuel it almost seems to change the rubber or whatever the diaphragm is made of and hardens it so it doesn't work as it should. i know every year i see tons of weed eaters for sale that "start but stalls" or "needs tune up". the expensive bottled gas is usually ethanol free which in my opinion is worth it for machines that are not used often. ever since swapping to ethanol free gas years ago i have never had to touch a carb on one of my machines were before i was having to clean the carbs every year.
If gas is stabilized and stored in a sealed (not vented) container so it gets no airflow, it should last a while before too much important stuff evaporates out or it collects much moisture. Gas in a carb bowl definitely has a shorter shelf life though.
FWIW, my lawn mower spent all of last winter with a full tank of stabilized E10. A quick shot of carb cleaner to break up the fogging oil in the spring and it fired right up and ran perfectly fine. Snowblower got the same treatment (shut off fuel valve with engine running, spray fogging oil into carb and shut down if it doesn't stall) at the end of last winter (although I can't remember if that's got E10 or E0 in the tank) and I expect the same results when I re-commission it in a month or so. So the carbs weren't totally dry on either, but they were partially drained and coated in fogging oil.
That's what I was getting at with some of the small, cheap carbs just being poorly made. Ethanol is common enough and ethanol resistant fuel system parts have been around for a long time at this point, so there's no excuse for manufacturers using non-compatible parts in a carb at this point.
My two cents, I personally don't think that the carburetors are so much poorly designed and made as more prone to clogging because of the reality of our modern age.
They are a necessary response to the new CARB III standards and the new EPA's 35% standards. (CARB standards are standards developed by the California Air Resources Board and have now been adopted by 13 other states. Therefore, everywhere.)
These standards are attempting to address a significant percentage of pollution caused by small engines.
In their attempt to comply, carburetor jets and passages have been made much more precise and consequently, tiny. And, tiny jets and passages clog more easily. (Its also why the gas containers no longer have vents.)
FWIW, the standards are going to become more stringent in the future. This is why manufacturers are introducing new engines with fuel injection. They're better but at an additional cost. Good side effect is their much less likely to gum due to Ethanol breaking down.
i really don't even see why they care that much about small engines. they still tons of 2 stroke small equipment even tho 4 stroke small engines are likely a bit better for the environment and becoming more affordable
as far as fuel injection goes, it still has its issues with ethanol and sitting. one member on here has recently discovered just how much electric fuel pumps like sitting for a few months without running. fuel pumps is likely the biggest issue i see with the new EFI snowblowers. they don't like sitting in contact with ethanol fuel and even worse they hate sitting dry like some people do at the end of the season.
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