Snowblower Forum banner

Hit the limit of my 826 - Monster storm - chugging

11K views 80 replies 24 participants last post by  barney 
#1 · (Edited)
50 year storm in my area yesterday and last night. THe snow was heavily packed and 4 1/2 feet deep in my 120 ft. driveway.

Taking my time it took almost an hour to get a 4 ft. wide path cut through for 100 ft. at which point the engine started to chug so shut her down for 20 minutes.

After I restarted she ran smoothly but the moment I put her under load she immediately began to chug so I pulled the machine back out of the snow. She chugged for another 10 seconds and cut out. Tried again and same thing. She has fresh efree gas and oil and a new oem carb with 3 hours on it.

Does anyone have insight/experience over what might cause symptoms like this?

FOLLOW UP: Turns out it was a bad plug. New NGK plug fixed the problem.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Haven't checked it yet. However the machine will restart and run fine up until it hits load.

Can't see how you can check for spark during operation and at point of actually dying? Am I missing something. [I'm not knowledgeable about engine repair :crying:]. I'm assuming it has spark since it can be restarted.

My engine handy neighbor suggested it could be the plug. He said when small engines are worked hard...which the machine was definitely doing...the plug can go fubar and need to be replaced. Does that sound right to you? She has the original plug with 3 winters on it. I will get a new plug.

Thank you for your reply.
 
#4 ·
does it run and operate normally with no load i assume? it evens chugs with small bite of snow? like maybe 3rd of bucket?

is it stalling or just chugging? is there any obstructions like built up ice in housing and chute?

could be fuel delivery problem? fuel cap off , does it still do it?

I haven't run into this problem but it has been posted here on these forums before. following to find out cause. someone will be along with some answers hopefully.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barney
#6 ·
No ice or chute blockage. It ran smoothly both times I restarted it. Drove okay too. Once it faced a small snow load began to chug and died within 10-15 seconds despite pulling it back from snow...it didn't recover, kept chugging.
Haven't tried removing gas cap yet to see if that makes a diff. I'm hoping it's a plug problem.
 
#7 ·
I would expect you to get it warm and then do whatever to get it to die and then while it's not restarting check for spark.

You might also want to check to see if you have a bearing that is starting to bind up. Between the bearing and a load of snow it might be more than the engine can take.

.
 
#9 ·
50 year storm in my area yesterday and last night. THe snow was heavily packed and 4 1/2 feet deep in my 120 ft. driveway.

Taking my time it took almost an hour to get a 4 ft. wide path cut through for 100 ft. at which point the engine started to chug so shut her down for 20 minutes.

After I restarted she ran smoothly but the moment I put her under load she immediately began to chug so I pulled the machine back out of the snow. She chugged for another 10 seconds and cut out. Tried again and same thing. She has fresh efree gas and oil and a new oem carb with 3 hours on it.

Does anyone have insight/experience over what might cause symptoms like this?
Exhaust valve may be low on clearance.
Classic sign is the problem begins with a substantial load put on engine...problem goes away in a very short time when the load is gone.
What I would do is..run er until she acts up...shut off.. immediately pull rope and see if it has a compression loss..if yes...but has good compression again after sitting a minute or two..it's a classic sign of not enough exhaust valve clearance




Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
 
#12 ·
Exhaust valve may be low on clearance.
Classic sign is the problem begins with a substantial load put on engine...problem goes away in a very short time when the load is gone.
What I would do is..run er until she acts up...shut off.. immediately pull rope and see if it has a compression loss..if yes...but has good compression again after sitting a minute or two..it's a classic sign of not enough exhaust valve clearance

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
Thank you for this excellent advice. I will def give that a try and see.
 
#11 ·
If the snow was higher than the machine, it would be possible for the carb\governor linkage to bind up from snow buildup. Depending on the heat box over the carb, snow may be sucked into the carb throat also.
 
#13 ·
Snow was def higher than machine by a foot or foot and a half. I guess if snow gets sucked into your carb you then have a water problem in the bowl that will need to be dropped and cleaned out?

Thank you for your good tip.
 
#17 · (Edited)
+1 on the compression loss symptoms...likely time for a valve job.

There's a slim chance that it's the head gasket and you may be able to re-torque the head bolts.

this is an old briggs and stratton flathead correct?

I believe they torque spec on those is 165 inch pounds (NOT FOOT POUNDS!).
 
#19 · (Edited)
+1 on the compression loss symptoms...likely time for a valve job.

There's a slim chance that it's the head gasket and you may be able to re-torque the head bolts.

this is an old briggs and stratton flathead correct?

I believe they torque spec on those is 160 inch pounds (NOT FOOD POUNDS!).
No it's a 2017 Toro oem Chinese engine with maybe 20 hours total. The chugging starting quickly after an hour of use and a few minutes later engine cut out. Restarted fine, idled fine, and immediately began chugging again as soon as a bit of load introduced and cut out again. At that point I put it away.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I just tried it again. Started fine. Very strange that the instant the augur just touches a corner of the snow face she cuts out. So the tiniest bit of load it instantly cuts out. Yet it drives no problem.

I think I need to replace the plug. Drop the bowl and clean that in case some snow got sucked into carb. Check linkages. Check my trans case again and try and determine if anything else may be binding....(not sure what else could be 'binding'?)...and go from there.

Thank you gentlemen. :)
 
#24 ·
Sounds lean.. partial clog on main.
It sounds like it just stalls as soon as it gets a load?..If yes.. then probably a partial clog on main jet...choke fixing it will confirm a partial clog on main.
If the choke don't fix it then you may not have enough fuel flow.
When you have the bowl off...turn on the fuel for a second or two to make sure fuel flows freely..also check that the needle(for float) is moving freely as well.
On occasion they can get corrosion causing them then to stick open..shut..or perhaps in your case shut.. but not fully shut which will allow a small amount of fuel to pass through.. however these problems usually show up after a machine has been sitting and has not been in use recently.






Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
 
#27 · (Edited)
:angel:

Thank you for this.

I note that prior to the storm I moved the machine down from my distant shed and put it next to my back door and covered it with a tarp and rope.

Unfortunately at some point during the storm (60-80 mph winds for 18 hours) the tarp got pulled back and the engine and gas tank area was exposed. I'm wondering if that fine snow contaminated my gas tank?. Can fine snow get through a gas cap vent hole? Duh! I guess it can get into the carb too.

The machine ran fine for an hour.

Do my sudden cut out symptoms under load correspond with water contamination?

EDit:
I also note that I just tried starting the machine and couldn't get it to start after a couple of pulls. So I'm thinking contaminated gas and/or plug at this point and probably iced up governor too.

*I'm beginning to think I may have failed the machine instead of the machine failing me. I'll update/report the problem/fix when that is determined for any other novice's benefit.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Can you remove enough shroud(s) to see the throttle plate linkage, while operating? If it's a governor problem, you should be able to tell from watching the governor and throttle operation while putting a load on the engine. If the governor doesn't open the throttle plate as the engine slows, then you have a governor problem. Otherwise it's something else.

Edit- you could also temporarily tie a string to the throttle plate, drive it into snow, then give the string a little tug, to ensure the throttle plate is open fully, even if you do have a possible governor issue. Just to understand whether it's the actual engine itself, or the governor.

I don't think sucking some snow in through the carb's intake, while running, would get water down into the carb bowl. But if you suspect possibly bad gas, then draining the tank & bowl is a good idea. Not super-difficult, inexpensive, and could help answer a question.

Does adding partial choke help? If so, that would be consistent with running lean, for whatever reason.
 
#39 · (Edited)
I will be doing more inspection tomorrow...the machine acted up at dusk today in -25 celsius and high winds after sitting exposed for 18 hours in high winds and fine blowing snow...it's now dark and I can't get the machine indoors yet. Have it tightly tarped now.

Glad to hear about remote possibility of snow getting into carb resulting in water problem.

I didn't get a chance to try and choke it but it didn't seem like that would have saved it.

Thanks for the great information!!
 
#40 · (Edited)
If i had s dollar for everything someone blamed the gov here in threads
on a list of 1 to 15 exhaust valve would be 14 and gov 15
check movement of all linkage
Thank you for that considered opinion. :smile_big:

I'm hoping some part of the carb linkage may have just frozen up. I'm hoping there is some kind of exposed governor linkage that can do that. I will be checking it out as soon as I can get the machine into garage.
 
#41 ·
Hey Barney,

Since I'm not as familiar with your machine, like these other guys seem to be, Can you post the model and serial number from your machine?? AND the engine M&S numbers too?? No sense going crazy until we are ALL Familiar with what you actually own. Lots of good suggestions here, but I agree that Sludge buildup are kind of unlikely on a fairly new machine, which apparently you have. That and the fact that it happened SO suddenly, as it appears it did. But the fact that it is VERY repeatable event, leads me to believe that you won't have to look far, if we all just slow down, and look at the facts.


GLuck, Jay
 
#48 ·
How old is the machine? I have seen spark plugs that are ok on idle and just stop on power need.

Valves adjust can affect it as well (mine are over due for a check mine but will save for spring!)

There are no slam dunk answers, you have to go through the basic progressions and then go from there.
 
#52 ·
I agree with the other respondent that it sounds like a fuel delivery problem. I know you have a new carb (and presumably new jets) on there, but what about the rest of the fuel system? Hoses? Filters?


Running an unloaded engine (even at high RPM) takes almost no fuel flow, so it's no surprise you can start and run it. But put a load on it and fuel requirements go way up. If you have old hoses, they may be disintegrating internally and restricting flow above idle levels. Note that such particles can clog "new" jets and carb passages too, which is why it's always a good idea to replace all fuel hoses and filters when replacing the carb or jets. Fuel line is cheap and easy to install.


WRT the plug: Pull it out and inspect it. Clean? Gapped properly? Any little particles stuck to the electrodes? Clean with a brush, regap, and reinstall. Highly unlikely you need a brand new plug, cleaning and regapping should do it.



Report back!
 
#53 ·
Verify the governor functions to further open the carburetor throttle valve when the engine encounters a load. Conversely, when there's no engine load, the governor should function to move the throttle valve in a closed direction. You should see some movement of the governor linkage and throttle valve in response to engine load changes.

As others have indicated, it takes very little throttle valve movement from its full-closed position to bring the engine up to its rated speed when there's no load present. As the auger starts to move snow, the engine has to produce more power to do the increased work, therefore, the governor will function to further open the throttle valve.

Given the high wind and snowy conditions and given that it's stored outside at very low temperatures, it's possible wind-borne snow has coated the governor linkage with ice; degrading its function.
 
#54 ·
the 5 digit model number is of more help than 2017 826OE, that and the serial number can help break down the correct year also and help get the correct service manual info.

if it's a loncin not a briggs as toro lists the older one's having,(https://www.toro.com/en/parts/partdetails/?id=38953) for a loncin toro parts lists in the fuel tank veiw illustrated part number 9 shown or toro # 136-7801 Fuel Line Kit which consists of the joint( intank thread in fuel filter,) formed hoses, and inline fuel filter, any of the 2 when clogged can reduce fuel flow ,

the factory TORCH spark plugs are not of the best made, (ngk clone) at near 20 hours and as it's a it's a resistor plug, it has seen better days,,if it is ? a f7rtc ( toro #119-1901 Plug-Spark) replace it with a NGK bpr6es

make sure it's clear of snow/ice has build up under the gas tank over the governor linkage, that is also a area mice love to build nests,

since it was running good for a hour my personal guess is try a new spark plug before going wild
 
#57 ·
the factory TORCH spark plugs are not of the best made, (ngk clone) at near 20 hours and as it's a it's a resistor plug, it has seen better days,,if it is ? a f7rtc ( toro #119-1901 Plug-Spark) replace it with a NGK bpr6es
Good Lord,they actually put those horrible Torch plugs in a Toro?


My Harbor Freight Greyhound 6.5hp came with one of those plugs,it lasted less than 15 hours of use.By all means the OP should toss that thing right off the bat...
 
#56 ·
Does anyone know how these Toros know when to stall the engine without the use of shear pins? I sure don’t. But something to think about. As soon as the auger hits snow, it’s stalling out, similar to the way the machine tries to save the gearbox when it hits an obstruction. Could something be wrong with that system and it’s tricking itself? Lack of lube in gearbox perhaps? Frozen grease in gearbox? Auger dragging or catching on the side bushings/bearings? It’s being kept in very harsh, cold conditions.
 
#58 ·
Does anyone know how these Toros know when to stall the engine without the use of shear pins? I sure don’t....QUOTE]

As far as I know,Toros have no such system that kills the engine if the auger fails to turn.


Toro has so much faith in the strength of the auger gearbox,they claim "shearpins" aren't necessary.


My Toro 521 uses grade-5 bolts-and they pretty much never break no matter what that thing gobbles up.When it gets jammed up with a nice big rock left by the plow guy,the belt slips or the engine just stalls out because it doesn't have the torque to break the belt or auger drive parts..Gotta' say,Toro's right,their auger gearboxes are extremely tough.Then again,the gearbox on the 521 was used on machines all the way up to 11hp(maybe more).It's half again as big as the one on my Allis(Simplicity) 828 and has larger diameter shafts.
 
#61 ·
fox news should repair the headline.it should read
(Canada’s easternmost province was buried under 30 inches of snow Friday – a record for the most snow in 24 hours – as residents of the provincial capital of St. Johns struggled to clear snow drifts of 12 to 15 feet high left in the wake of the storm, a published report said.)
 
#62 · (Edited)
just today had mine own toro start miss fire while warming it up to change the oil, "5w30 to syntech 0w30' , i have a replacement motor on mine done by my buddies at the dealer, we NEVER checked the plug, to my amazement i found what was labeled BOSCH in blue letters with F7RTC stamped in the metal and a plug that for sure was not burning right totally black

trying to cross it over i can not find a bosch plug with that number, any where, doing a goggle it only comes up as a touch plug

Ok i spent my life working german car dealers as a master tech, service manager and factory level as a district service manager, never have i seen a near blank bosch plug ,bosch almost always as a few of the rings in the porcelain painted,they have a better cad plating that i have personally never seen rust .

end feeling IMM counterfeit,
getting back to barney's problem i hope it was only a plug nothing major with his area of canada having been hit big time with drifts of 12 to 15 feet
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top