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Princess Auto: PowerFist vs Pro.Point Engines

67K views 41 replies 19 participants last post by  LenD 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I was into my local Princess Auto recently and decided to check out the available engine options, not that I'm in the market for one, but I was curious as to what was available here in Canada. After all, Princess Auto has been around in retail form since 1977.

Unlike the Predator option at Harbor Freight in the US we have 2 options, well really 3. There's the in-house PowerFist brand, now more recently the higher-end line of tools and engines by Pro.Point and of course Honda GX. At first glance, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference aside from price and name. Why spend 2-4x the amount on an equivalent Honda sticker when that fist bump blue knock-off is going to get you out the door for significantly less and perhaps provide the same level of reliability and power? Considering they're $100 less than the Pro.Point and often $200 cheaper due to ongoing sales why go grey when you can score a better deal with blue?

Well, there's one significant difference that the Pro.Point has that the PowerFist may not and that is a Cast Iron Sleeve. I'm waiting on an e-mail reply back from Princess Auto about the type of cylinder liner used in the PowerFist engines, as there's no mention of the specs either on the box or the website. If it's aluminum essentially the PowerFist=Honda GC and the Pro.Point=Honda GX due to the cast iron sleeve. If it turns out they're both lined with cast iron then you're just paying more for a sticker, grey paint, and perhaps an electric start.

180cc PowerFist vs 163cc Honda GX




208cc PowerFist vs 208cc Pro.Point




270cc Honda GX vs PowerFist 270cc




They also have a winterized shrouded engine, if that's of any interest.

 
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#4 ·
GregNL
What about the Subaru, and Robin engines Princess Auto carries? I've always heard the Subaru was the best quality option, even over Honda! Still pricey.
+9 today:icon_blue_very_sad: Cheers
 
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#8 ·
GregNL
What about the Subaru, and Robin engines Princess Auto carries? I've always heard the Subaru was the best quality option, even over Honda! Still pricey.
They seem rather large for the application on a snowblower but it may fit fine. They're usually not out of box like the rest, or at least not recently, so it's hard to determine and as you said they're pricey. I'd buy a new Yamaha snowblower before buying a Subaru to repower it.
 
#5 ·
just a guess but it seems unlikely any small engine is going to be anything but an aluminum cylinder with a cast iron liner. Hard coatings like Nikasil (silicon carbide) is too pricey and the benefits negligible for low RPM engines.
 
#7 ·
So, I received a reply back this evening regarding the difference in cylinder liners between the PowerFist and Pro.Point engines:

Hello,

The Pro-point engines have a cast iron sleeve and the power fist engines is aluminum.

Regards,

F** M****
Customer Service Representative
====================================
Mail Order
Princess Auto Ltd.
Box 1005
Winnipeg, MB R3C 2W7
Toll Free; 1-800-665-8685
Toll Free Fax: 1-800-265-4212
E-mail: mailorder@princessauto.com
The PowerFist do indeed have an aluminum liner. If you're looking for a Canadian version of the Predator or Honda GX Clone then Pro.Point is one option. How they compare otherwise I'm not sure.
 
#20 ·
So, I received a reply back this evening regarding the difference in cylinder liners between the PowerFist and Pro.Point engines:



The PowerFist do indeed have an aluminum liner. If you're looking for a Canadian version of the Predator or Honda GX Clone then Pro.Point is one option. How they compare otherwise I'm not sure.
After re-reading GregNL's post they are fibbing, it is not aluminum...unless my magnet is magic!
 
#9 ·
funny how they advertised the powerfist as being cast iron a year or so ago, but now they have this new pro point engine for twice as much with a cast iron liner and the powerfist series that previously had them are the same item number as last years powerfist dont have one anymore. i call bs. buy one, pull the head, and ill bet you that cast iron liner will still be there. subaru engine are decent engine but dont beat honda for durability and reliability. its a pain to get parts for them too, i think its like 80-100 bucks for an oem carb with a honda you can buy a carb for like 12 bucks
 
#10 ·
What a timely post, I just bought a 420 CC Power Fist because they didn't have the Pro Point in stock. Now the Pro Points are in and they are on sale for $399, 70 more than the $329 I paid for the Power Fist. I was trying to figure out how to get to Saint John or Moncton to pay the difference and swap, but I had a nagging suspicion about what 43128 said myself. When these clones first came out hey were hailed as having a cast iron sleeve but not anymore and I was wondering if the cheap one still had it as well.

Tonight I will pull the head off mine and check it, a magnet should do the trick! I'm betting the Power Fist has the cast iron sleeve and the extra $100 is for Grey paint instead of Blue!

Oh, by the way, on the PA site, open the pdf manuals for each motor. Look at the parts list. Both Power Fist and Pro Point use the same part number for the crankcase (DJ190F-11100-BE).

If one has a sleeve and the other doesn't, shouldn't they be different numbers?

I'll post the results of my examination tonight.
 
#12 ·
Just doing a bit of reading online elsewhere about the difference as we really have no definitive information about any coating used if any or if they did just keep a cast iron lining in, though I doubt it. PA isn't known for consistency, detailed product descriptions or being on top of web site specifications as their product line is constantly changing. That said, with suggested use of ~20hrs a year and regular synthetic oil changes you're looking to get about 10-20 years out of the engine before anything serious goes wrong.
 
#14 ·
My local dealer won't take the Power Fist engines in for service, he can't back them up. There is no warranty support and no parts. He could buy Honda parts, he is not a dealer, and hope they work but there is no guarantee. If I was repowering an old machine for quick sale I would probably use a Chonda but not for my own use. Remember, the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well, glad I found this thread which gave me the drive to tear that puppy apart!

Forgive me if anyone considers this hijacking, but I did take the time to tear apart a new engine tonight and am sharing the info soooo....

First a bit of history. Always been a Bolens guy, never owned anything else. I have the Oldest of five in the family, 1974 ish.

Inherited from my brother when he finally put the connecting rod through the side of the QT16. These were dead in the water when the engine went because of the need for a 2nd PTO on the flywheel side, try to find one of those cheap!
Anyway, I wasn't about to see a whole tractor with attachments go to scrap because of the engine only, and in particular, that problem, PTO on the flywheel side.

At the time, Honda clones were just gaining traction and becoming common in the States. It was the cheapest 16 HP engine going and being a clone of a Honda, I thought was the best avenue to follow. So I ordered one.

To make a long story short(er) I found a way to attach a 1" PTO shaft to the flywheel and ended up running it in the Bolens for about a year and a half before running it dry of oil and killing it. By now Princess Auto (Yes that's the real name, pretty much the exact equivalent of your Harbor Freight, on a Canadian size scale) was carrying Power Fist Motors. So I bought one to replace the MaxBlue (I think it was), and being a clone, my PTO adapter bolted right on.

Been running that one for around 3 1/2 years now. The reason I bought the motor we are about to explore is because three times in a row I hit the local papers flyer bundle and stopped the tractor instantly. The third time I thought the engine was damaged but I eventually got it running again and still using it. However, it's time is probably short, hence having one prepared on standby and ready to go. If you experienced our CDN winters you would understand this obsession.

My reason for explaining all this is to try to get the point across to those who might need to re-power on a budget, these clones are extremely durable! And the thought that a part is only a local Honda dealer away is a great comfort, even though you probably will never need to enter their doors. The blown engine I have is a wealth of parts for the current and future ones I will run. Then compare the prices...Honda 389cc at $1200 vs Power Fist 420cc at $329.

Enough history, the results of the teardown:

At this point I was going to insert pictures, looks like they need to be posted on the net somehow and then insert a url. If someone wants to explain I will.

Anway, a magnet sticks to the cylinder wall inside. It looks like the wall is about 150 thou thick. I might add, the quality of the inside of this motor seems great, very fine finish.

My thoughts on the doublespeak from Princess Auto. While waiting to get home and open this up I Googled cylinder inserts and I see there seems to be two lines of thought on cylinder sleeves, steel or cast iron. I wasn't aware of this previously. I'm betting all the clones have at the least a steel liner and the better ones like Pro Point have switched to a Cast Iron, presumably longer lasting, and more expensive to produce. If this is the case, Princess Auto isn't fibbing, the Pro Point has a cast iron sleeve and the Power Fist doesn't...but if it has steel, I don't care myself, it will out last aluminum only by far. After all, it is what it is, a very cheap but great motor! Princess Auto just isn't telling you this, would rather sell the more expensive one I guess. Go figure.

One last thing...the experience of the struggle will far outlast the simplicity of opening the wallet!


.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Just to add on the PowerFist line of engines, they are actually Ducar engines made by a reputable company in China.
Ducar also build over 500,000 of 250cc class motorcycles and they build fine generators which I own for the last 10 years and running without a hitch, lastly they supply the Chinese Army for all their small generators needs.
They are all lined with cast iron sleeves and should be run with synthetic oil since in the event of overheating they will suffer much less damage.
I have 3 Ducar engines and they all perform very good.
BTW in Canada MTI Canada is the supplier of Ducar engines in Quebec.
http://www.mticanada.ca/en/contact.html#siegeSocial

Good Luck All

Norm
 
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#26 ·
......
BTW in Canada MTI Canada is the supplier of Ducar engines in Quebec.
MTI Canada inc. - Farm machinery and Outdoor Power Equipment | Contact us

Good Luck All

Norm
thanks Norm for the heads up on this engine, i'm not a fan, but, never know, one day, maybe that is all that will be left on the market


I'm right on the border of Ottawa, so going to Princess is not a problem, maybe an hour and a half set back, depending how long i'm there. A lot of Quebec plates in the parking lot, lolll
 
#27 ·
Princess Auto Wrecking (PAW) began life in 1933. The original owner sold the company to Harvey Tallman in 1942 for the money he received when he sold his truck.
Harvey began by selling auto parts to customers who came into his small outlet on Princess Street in Winnipeg, Manitoba. By the 1950's, PAW was buying parts in the United States, buying cars all over Western Canada, and Harvey had begun to travel in search of new products needed by farmers across Canada. Most of the products were War Surplus, and it was with those items that the first Princess Auto Catalogue was created.
Eventually, the Princess Street location became too small. The company relocated to a much larger location on the corner of Fort and York and created a small manufacturing division. In time, Shur-Lift Industries would become a major supplier to PAW, which would change its name several times, first to Princess Auto and Machinery, and later, simply to Princess Auto (PAL).
 
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#29 ·
Princess Auto Wrecking (PAW) began life in 1933. The original owner sold the company to Harvey Tallman in 1942 for the money he received when he sold his truck.
Harvey began by selling auto parts to customers who came into his small outlet on Princess Street in Winnipeg, Manitoba. By the 1950's, PAW was buying parts in the United States, buying cars all over Western Canada, and Harvey had begun to travel in search of new products needed by farmers across Canada. Most of the products were War Surplus, and it was with those items that the first Princess Auto Catalogue was created.
Eventually, the Princess Street location became too small. The company relocated to a much larger location on the corner of Fort and York and created a small manufacturing division. In time, Shur-Lift Industries would become a major supplier to PAW, which would change its name several times, first to Princess Auto and Machinery, and later, simply to Princess Auto (PAL).
Our Story | Princess Auto
 
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#30 ·
Many thanks for the PA original story as I remember receiving their catalog from Winnipeg in the 60`s.
Btw I called MTI if the cast iron sleeves were interchangeable and was told they were not.
Thanks also to Bolens for the trouble of putting us on the right page with these fine engines.
Just wondering though it seems like you had the summer engine right?

Take care All

Norm
 
#31 ·
All this "Warm and Fuzzy" about Winnipeg's Princess Auto, does anyone remember " The Pegs" other beloved catalogue/store, SIR (Sydney I Robinson), I loved getting that thing in the mail. I think my age is starting to show when Cabela's, SIR, and PAuto are my preferred reading material for that special room :)
 
#32 ·
Yes, it is a summer engine, they don't have a 420 for winter. It's in a tractor though so it is getting some shielding from the weather. It never occurred to me about changing a sleeve, I guess I assumed they are cast into the block but maybe they are just pressed in.

Most likely by the time we wear out a sleeve other components would be going such as crank pin, connecting rod, piston/rings.

I guess what really blows me away on these engines is that you can have four complete units for the price of a Honda.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Yes, it is a summer engine, they don't have a 420 for winter. It's in a tractor though so it is getting some shielding from the weather. It never occurred to me about changing a sleeve, I guess I assumed they are cast into the block but maybe they are just pressed in.
Hi Bolens, I beg to differ on the 420 being unavailable for winter unless you mean't they did not have any in stock.
I am on my second year running my blower with the winterized 420cc Powerfist (Ducar) engine and it starts first pull with 4 push of primer.
Here are a few pics of my setup and notice also the red heating handles from MTD.
 

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#33 ·
Major props for taking on that investigative work, Bolens! That's why I started this thread as I, and perhaps others, were curious of the difference between the now unmarked PowerFist engines about the type of sleeve liner, if any, and how it may differ from the Pro.Point.

Once again, :rock: :icon-clapping-smile :bowing:

Kudos to Normex for the background on these engines as well! :goodjob:
 
#37 · (Edited)
Also with some search the Pro.Point engines are also made by Ducar but I can't find why they sell for more albeit for not that much of a big difference. Besides cosmetics I bet both engines are exactly the same.
 
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