Running air-cooled gas engines at full throttle. - Page 3 - Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums
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post #21 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverRider View Post


EDIT ONE OF MY POSTS HAS BEEN DELETED ALREADY.

Yes, i deleted it, and you noticed it before I had time to comment on it!
thats fine..

As I said in post #3, we arent going to have random speculation and wild tangents here..
As I also said, feel free to post direct quotes from manufacturer documents, and provide a link to the original document, like in post #1.

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post #22 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sscotsman View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about, in relation to Honda.
As I said, feel free to post direct quotes from manufacturer documents, and provide a link to the original document, like in post #1.
Scot

I am proving a point from this thread that you stated running an engine less than 3600 RPM is detrimental to its longevity. Manufacturers make engines for all purposes with no ill effects running less than 3600RPM which seem to be just a North American thing most likely tied to a SAE spec of 3600RPM as a standard we stupid Americans are accustomed to.


https://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...77-post29.html


https://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...23-post32.html

Last edited by DriverRider; 01-23-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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post #23 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdipaul View Post
but the load (ie the blower processing the snow) can vary from one pass to the next. Would this affect the results?
.
I'd certainly expect it could. I think you'd want to load up the engine as much as possible. Cram as much snow into the bucket as is practical High ground speed, into deep snow.

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Originally Posted by tadawson View Post
Hard to get head temp with the cooling shrouds on, and hard to get cooling with them off . .

Thermocouple could just be pushed into the fins on the head past the plug into the fins.
But you want to ensure the thermocouple is reading the metal temperature, more than the air passing over it. Many thermocouples don't have a lot of mass by themselves, and are often round. They'd be easily cooled by the air rushing over them, giving an inaccurate reporting of the actual metal temperature. And if the thermocouple probe is round, it's not actually making much contact with the metal. And a small movement of the probe could change its contact with the metal, changing the reading. If you could clamp the probe to a surface, that would at least make it more consistent.

An IR gun aimed next to the spark plug, or something like that, might work. You couldn't get "live" readings, unfortunately, but it might give a better chance of reading the surface temperature accurately.

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Originally Posted by DriverRider View Post
Your argument is with Honda as I stated in the other thread. Honda is running their engines and generators at 3000RPM in the rest of the world with no reported adverse effect, so why is Honda wrong and where is your proof of reduced engine service life?
Generator service is likely the most severe duty an engine will see.
That's an interesting point. Does anyone know if, for instance, a given engine & generator combo is rated at less watts for 50Hz?

Though I guess even if it was, I could think of at least 2 possible explanations:
- the engine simply produces less power when turning more slowly
or
- possibly they had to de-rate it a little to avoid overheating the engine, when running at the lower RPM.
So even if you did find manufacturer A showing engine B running a higher-wattage generator at 3600 RPM vs 3000, it might be difficult to draw firm conclusions.

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post #24 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RedOctobyr View Post
I'd certainly expect it could. I think you'd want to load up the engine as much as possible. Cram as much snow into the bucket as is practical High ground speed, into deep snow. .

You would not want to load it like on a dyno. Moderate load just like most everyone runs their equipment in the real world.
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post #25 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tadawson View Post
Just trying to figure out why the easily verifiable counterpoint that I propose is somehow not valid, despite the fact that the physics invoved *IS*. I think that is a reasonable request . . .
Ariens manual contradicting this, for the EFI engine:
http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/05136000C_ENG.pdf

A little insight, the demise of the carb and points and condenser were due to EPA regulations as the car manufactures could not meet emission standards with those devices. Points and rubbing block started to wear driving out the door and would not meet emission time service requirements of 5yr/50k? miles back then. Carburetors were notoriously dirty especially closed throttle decel where high intake manifold vacuum sucked in a rich mixture. Hence EFI.

Last edited by DriverRider; 01-23-2019 at 08:00 PM.
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post #26 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DriverRider View Post
You would not want to load it like on a dyno. Moderate load just like most everyone runs their equipment in the real world.
I agree that a moderate "fixed" load is probably better. But with different RPM, matching that load "by hand", if you will, is probably difficult. Your ground speed will be changing, as well as the augers & impeller RPM. The simplest thing to do consistently might be to just load up the engine completely. Same throttle position (wide open), and you only change the RPM. Which you'd effectively do by varying the snow load.

If you do something like just use the same gear, and only vary the RPM, then the load on the engine will also change significantly. You'd be processing less snow per-second, if the only change is to slow the RPMs. And a slower impeller & auger doesn't require as much power, so at lower RPM, the engine would likely not open the throttle plate as far. Reducing the heat produced per power-cycle (not just per-second, which also depends on RPM). That seems like a less-balanced comparison.

If you're going to reduce the throttle load on the engine at the same time that you slow the RPMs down, then there's no need to use a snowblower (which can fully-load the engine at a range of engine speeds, depending on your gear selection, and the snow conditions).

You could keep things a lot simpler, and more consistent, by just running a mower at different RPMs (just sitting in-place). At lower RPM, there is less drag on the blade, so less power is needed, and the throttle plate doesn't have to open as far. It's a lot easier to get a mower to a steady-state, with it running in the driveway for 15-20 minutes, than it is to get to a steady-state condition with a blower, where you have to stop and turn around, etc.

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Last edited by sscotsman; 01-23-2019 at 10:01 PM. Reason: opps..sorry, I didnt intend to edit it. that was a mistake.
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post #27 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 08:19 PM
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I emailed this man to see if he knows. He's done a lot of interesting tests

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2r...6N1X-wuOg_p0Ng

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post #28 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 09:21 PM
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I just like to idle it down, and hear it idle.



Something about the sound that I like.
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post #29 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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I wish I had thought to instantly create a "post #2" in this thread, just for the excerpts from manufacturer manuals and documentation that support the opposing viewpoint..
but I didnt think of it until just now..

So I'll turn post #3 into the post for that..I'll add quotes there..
and i'll also update post #1 with new ones for "run full throttle" if/when they are found.

So if you have any direct quotes from engine or OPE manufacturers that say its fine to run for extended times at less than full throttle,
please write them up! put them in a new reply, then I'll put them in post #3 so they are all on the front page of this thread..
my goal is to make this thread "one stop shopping" for all the pro and con data, so people can easily find it and decide for themselves.

Like post #1, Please provide a direct quote from the document, and also a link to the document itself.

thanks,
Scot


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post #30 of 79 Old 01-23-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOctobyr View Post
I'd certainly expect it could. I think you'd want to load up the engine as much as possible. Cram as much snow into the bucket as is practical High ground speed, into deep snow.
But you want to ensure the thermocouple is reading the metal temperature, more than the air passing over it. Many thermocouples don't have a lot of mass by themselves, and are often round. They'd be easily cooled by the air rushing over them, giving an inaccurate reporting of the actual metal temperature. And if the thermocouple probe is round, it's not actually making much contact with the metal. And a small movement of the probe could change its contact with the metal, changing the reading. If you could clamp the probe to a surface, that would at least make it more consistent.
An IR gun aimed next to the spark plug, or something like that, might work. You couldn't get "live" readings, unfortunately, but it might give a better chance of reading the surface temperature accurately.
That's an interesting point. Does anyone know if, for instance, a given engine & generator combo is rated at less watts for 50Hz?
Though I guess even if it was, I could think of at least 2 possible explanations:
- the engine simply produces less power when turning more slowly
or
- possibly they had to de-rate it a little to avoid overheating the engine, when running at the lower RPM.
So even if you did find manufacturer A showing engine B running a higher-wattage generator at 3600 RPM vs 3000, it might be difficult to draw firm conclusions.

Where in the world are you coming up with this overheating theory of a snowblower operating at 32 degrees F and under? Or overheating of an air cooled small engine at all which should be happening in Saudi Arabia and no reports so far. Here are the possible engine/ pole numbers. Everywhere except North America your typical generator with small air cooled engine is running 3000RPM. Honda included, this is no special engine same one installed on their snowblowers. Come to think of it have you ever seen an over heated failure of an engine not due to chafe?



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