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post #1 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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CCR 2000 4.5HP Help

CCR 2000 4.5HP
Model 38180
Serial 5921418
Single Stage
Two-stroke Engine

Having troubles and about to give in for the day. Getting annoyed and my brain does not work optimally when I'm annoyed. Taking a timeout.

It ran earlier today (but not well) using a new carb.
Now will not start at all
Even tried the original carb again

I certainly have spark (used a spark tester)
However I'm never sure if this guarantees that the spark plug is sparking or just that the coil is giving power. I am ASSUMING spark plug is still ok from earlier.
[EDIT: as we'll see soon.. it only tests the coil... not the plug]

Carb cleaner in choke not giving a cough or splutter
Carb cleaner in cylinder not giving a cough or a splutter

So then I thought.. did the piston rings just fail on me and that's why it was not running well?

Compression test shows 95
Looked briefly at service manual but thought someone may be very familiar with this model so I thought I'd ask

95 is not great .. shouldn't it be 100 or higher? I saw that some machines should be a minimum 100 in the service manual but not sure if that's certainly correct for THIS model
At the same time.. 95 is not horrendously bad... is it?
What do you usually see on these machines?
Does 95 look OK or might these piston rings be shot?

All I can think of at this point to try is
1) Get another spark plug... but why? if the spark tester is working and the engine ran a few hours ago [EDIT: This ends up being the correct answer... those spark-testers do not test the spark!!]
2) Spoonful of oil in the cylinder to see if that snugs worn piston rings.. don't really want to mess up the plug with burning neat oil. Thought I'd check here to see if the 95 value is OK or not first.

Any thoughts?

BTW I'm in Denver at 5000'and I don't like fixed jet carbs above 3000' for reasons I talked about recently elsewhere.
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Last edited by unknown1; 09-04-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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post #2 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuart80112 View Post
CCR 2000 4.5HP
Model 38180
Serial 5921418
Single Stage
Two-stroke Engine

Having troubles and about to give in. Getting annoyed and my brain does not work optimally when I'm annoyed. Taking a timeout.

It ran earlier today (but not well) using a new carb.
Now will not start at all
Even tried the original carb again

I certainly have spark (used a spark tester)
However I'm never sure if this guarantees that the spark plug is sparking or just that the coil is giving power. I am ASSUMING spark plug is still ok from earlier. Does this sound correct?

Carb cleaner in choke not giving a cough or splutter
Carb cleaner in cylinder not giving a cough or a splutter

So then I thought.. did the piston rings just fail on me and that's why it was not running well?

Compression test shows 95
Looked briefly at service manual but thought someone may be very familiar with this model so I thought I'd ask

95 is not great .. shouldn't it be 100 or higher? I saw that some machines should be a minimum 100 in the service manual but not sure if that's certainly correct for THIS model
At the same time.. 95 is not horrendously bad... is it?
What do you usually see on these machines?
Does 95 look OK or might these piston rings be shot?

All I can think of at this point to try is
1) Get another spark plug... but why? if the spark tester is working and the engine ran a few hours ago
2) Spoonful of oil in the cylinder to see if that snugs worn piston rings.. don't really want to mess up the plug with burning neat oil. Thought I'd check here to see if the 95 value is OK or not first.

Any thoughts?
i cant help you on the compression number. but i have owned and fixed multiple of these over the years i love these machines.

if you arent sure about the spark plug i would pull it and put it in the boot ground a screw driver in the plug hole and put the spark plug against the screw driver and pull it over. you will see the spark it wont shock you if your holding the boot.

i know these are usually pretty easy to start and if it was running weird with a brand new carb i would suspect something other then fuel.

i would make sure you have spark at the electrode of the plug first before you do anything. ..if you also replaced the carb with a new one and are sure you are getting fuel compression would be next to check.

Toro snow commander 7hp RTEK ...honda HS720 GC190 OHC
Toro ccr3650 6.5hp RTEK ....Ariens sno-tek 26" 208cc LCT
Ariens st824 924082 HMSK 80 ....Ariens path pro 136cc

Last edited by Snowbelt_subie; 09-03-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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post #3 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 09:27 PM
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another thing these machines flood pretty easily. i have picked up a couple the person selling said didnt run but all it needed was plug cleaned and restarted.

most i have found start best with one prime and no choke should start within 1-2 pulls

Toro snow commander 7hp RTEK ...honda HS720 GC190 OHC
Toro ccr3650 6.5hp RTEK ....Ariens sno-tek 26" 208cc LCT
Ariens st824 924082 HMSK 80 ....Ariens path pro 136cc
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post #4 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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I've checked the compression it's 95 but this may be low .. that's what my question is :-)

I've checked spark with a spark tester can anyone say FOR CERTAIN if that simultaneously verifies the spark plug or just the coil?.
Yes I'm desperate enough to do it the old way and look for spark on the actual plug but if the spark tester verifies that the plug is sparking .. I shouldn't need to.
I'm in timeout mode and don't want to go back to that machine until I get rid of the axe sitting next to the machine ;-) Maybe tomorrow.

Flooding.. maybe... but the carb fluid should have at least coughed... that stuff is high-explosive. :-)
I will leave it sitting with the plug removed overnight to let any flooding evaporate.

It's that darn 95 compression that's bugging me most.
Hoping someone knows the numbers FOR CERTAIN. :-)
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post #5 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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I've just answered my own question!!

The spark plug failed some time this afternoon!! It probably also explains why I could not get it to run well even with a new carb.
I used the old-school test grounding the plug against the engine body to confirm that the plug is now totally dead.
It was probably failing fast this afternoon and gasping its last breath....then....croak..

I switched a different plug in and it starts right up!!

So this tells me....... 95 is an OK compression (at least it starts)

It also tells me that a spark tester DOES NOT TEST THE PLUG it only tests the COIL and a path to ground
I know this because the bad plug was still passing the sparker-tester flash test

I've always had my doubts about what a spark-tester really tests.
This is the first time I've ever been able to find out for sure and prove it for myself by having a plug I now know for sure is bad.

Last edited by unknown1; 09-04-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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post #6 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuart80112 View Post
I've just answered my own question!!

The spark plug failed some time this afternoon!! It probably also explains why I could not get it to run well even with a new carb.
I used the old-school test grounding the plug against the engine body to confirm that the plug is now totally dead.
It was probably failing fast this afternoon and gasping its last breath....then....croak..

I switched a different plug in and it starts right up!!

So this tells me....... 95 is an OK compression

It also tells me that a spark tester DOES NOT TEST THE PLUG it only tests the COIL and a path to ground
I know this because the bad plug was still passing the sparker-tester flash test

I've always had my doubts about what a spark-tester really tests.
This is the first time I've ever been able to find out for sure and prove it for myself by having a plug I now know for sure is bad.
cool glad you got it running. i always test for spark this way when troubleshooting to make sure the electrode is actually sparking.
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post #7 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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cool glad you got it running. i always test for spark this way when troubleshooting to make sure the electrode is actually sparking.
Yes but you can see why I didn't right?

a) It was sparking OK-ish this afternoon.
b) The spark-tester seemed to be saying things are OK
c) I'd been messing with carburetors and fuel supplies looking for why it was running roughly.

The plug failure was a total coincidence coming in from left field.

It's always good to take a timeout!! ;-)

Usually (but not THIS time) the last thing you messed with is the thing you broke. I'd been messing with carburetors and even the governor trying to get a smoother consistent run.

Last edited by unknown1; 09-04-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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post #8 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stuart80112 View Post
Yes but you can see why I didn't right?

a) It was sparking OK-ish this afternoon.
b) The spark-tester was saying things are OK
c) I'd been messing with carburetors and fuel supplies looking for why it was running roughly.

The plug failure was a total coincidence coming in from left field.

It's always good to take a timeout!! ;-)
Those darn "Spark Testers" should be called "Coil Testers"... even the name sends you down the wrong path. It doesn't test the spark!
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post #9 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 10:15 PM
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Yes but you can see why I didn't right?

a) It was sparking OK-ish this afternoon.
b) The spark-tester was saying things are OK
c) I'd been messing with carburetors and fuel supplies looking for why it was running roughly.

The plug failure was a total coincidence coming in from left field.

It's always good to take a timeout!! ;-)
yea intermittent electrical/spark problems are the worst. especially coils that heat up or work intermittently. you made it through and at least it didnt put you in the loony bin.

Toro snow commander 7hp RTEK ...honda HS720 GC190 OHC
Toro ccr3650 6.5hp RTEK ....Ariens sno-tek 26" 208cc LCT
Ariens st824 924082 HMSK 80 ....Ariens path pro 136cc
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post #10 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stuart80112 View Post
Those darn "Spark Testers" should be called "Coil Testers"... even the name sends you down the wrong path. It doesn't test the spark!
..and here's a second source of confirmation (to the extent that you can trust anything you find on the internet)
this post also asserts that the spark tester only tests the coil and path to ground but not the plug itself

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/...e-spark-tester

Oh well... like I said.. I always had that doubt... now I know for certain. :-)

Last edited by unknown1; 09-03-2017 at 10:44 PM.
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