Toro YR: 1995, Model: 38170 SN: 59xxxxx 16" Snow Thrower - Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums
 
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-02-2015, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Toro YR: 1995, Model: 38170 SN: 59xxxxx 16" Snow Thrower

First post here. I did some searching as well as read the manuals, etc. Sorry for the long post, figured I would get it all out of the way with one post rather than 10.

We recently purchased a model 38170 16" snow thrower from someone on Craigslist. Price was very very good however you get what you pay for. We chose this model because it is lightweight and small enough that my other half can use it with ease if I am not home or not available, etc. It's perfect for our needs... when it runs... This is a manual pull-start model.

I'm not new to engines at all. I have a bunch of two stroke outboard boat motors, old Vespas and I'm a car and motorcycle nut so these things generally come easily and nothing scares me.

The machine was leaking fuel badly. It was also running rich and stalling quite often. Too often. It is hard to explain (or impossible) to my other half the differences between 2 & 4 stroke motors and the difference between torque and HP and that this needs the RPM's so going slow is faster than jamming the machine into a giant pile of snow --because it doesn't have the torque to handle that... but I digress.

I initially thought the leak was a cracked fuel tank or even a cracked or improperly attached fuel hose. It was running very rich and stalling quite frequently. Upon trying to restart the machine it would flood and need 30-45min with the plug pulled before it would restart. (Never helps when it stalls on her and she pumps the primer 30x and then cranks it for 10min )

Turns out neither the fuel hose or the fuel tank were leaking fuel. I now believe that something is mucked up with the float/needle in the carburetor, especially since the problem gets better as the fuel tank empties. Is this a common problem? The previous owner had done much maintenance and there appears to be a new float bowl and springs on the carburetor --no idea about the internals until this evening. Are there better/premium/upgraded carburetors available for this motor? I am roughly at sea level for altitude purposes. Are there jetting concerns I need to think about?

I got so frustrated with the thing that it's now completely torn down on my workbench - the engine and carburetor are still intact but the rest of the unit is completely torn apart. I media blasted the metal parts and have dropped them to be powder coated. I pick them up today. The plastic parts have all been cleaned (I have a dishwasher in the garage for de-greasing and cleaning purposes) and are now ready to be re-assembled. The main housing had a small crack down by the lower left corner which has now been repaired properly with plastic epoxy similar to JB Weld and reinforced at both corners down by the snow scraper.

When it's back together I hope the unit will look and perform as good as new.

At this point, I'm looking for:

1. parts and best practices (do I purchase, or which is preferred: new OEM, used OEM or new/used aftermarket, where is best to purchase from) Looking for things like replacement rubber blades, the bearings at each end of the blades, engine gasket kits, the plastic screw anchors that fit into the metal frame and handle, etc.

2. fuel & oil mixtures - is running any decent synthetic two-stroke oil @ 50:1 fine on regular 89 octane fuel? This may or may not sound crazy to some... Most of my other two strokes are from the 1960's and 1970's and/or are highly modified... this is from 1995 based on the 59xxxxx serial number. Can I run 110 leaded AVGAS or 105-110 unleaded race fuel in it? Any issues with that?

3. common issues, things to look out for, maintenance points, problems, etc.

4. upgrades and modifications: This unit has a Tecumseh HSK600 1680S (D) 4187H --98cc, 3HP motor installed. Do people modify these things? I see a few HSK845 motors online for less than $100. Would that engine plug-and-play bolt straight into the Toro unit I have? Other than simple porting are there any other modifications people do to these motors?

5. Exhaust. We both work nights and odd hours. While I love the sound of a two-smoker, I assume the neighbors may not at 1:00am if either of us needs to leave to get to work. Are there any OEM/Bolt-on solutions for a quieter exhaust? I have some custom exhaust baffling ideas but are there any stock/OEM/bolt on solutions that might quiet down the motor at all? There seems to be much space below the exhaust in and around the drive belt setup. Knowing that some of these are used for carting and dirt bikes, are there expansion pipes for these motors?

I'm not looking to do anything crazy with this motor but I do enjoy having fun with anything that burns gasoline and the snow piles are quite high this year. Any more height or distance would be great... The #1 goal is reliability and ease of starting (for her starting on the first or second pull would be ideal --and messing around with the choke/primer is something I'd like her to be able to avoid) and the #2 goal would be torque, without sacrificing any reliability or ease of starting. We often get heavy, wet snow and she does not grasp the concept of HP vs. Torque.

With those goals I'm guessing a larger displacement motor would be the easiest drop-in or bolt-on solution. Is it possible to drop in an HSK845 motor with zero modifications to the mounting points or frame? Though not much larger of an engine, it would provide more torque, and if rebuilt I assume it would be just as reliable, or more reliable as the HSK600. Are pistons and rings still available for this motor as well as the HSK600? Do they come in 1st or 2nd oversize bores? I would be willing to modify the stock HSK600 motor but usually performance modifications mean sacrifices in reliability which is a deal breaker.

My current plan is to re-assemble the machine tonight, in stock form. If an HSK845 motor is possible for a direct-fit swap, I will purchase one, disassemble and rebuild it and then swap the motors when the HSK845 is ready. Are these motors and exhaust mufflers interchangeable in the Toro 16" CCR POWERLITE machine we have?


Any thoughts, feedback, help, guidance or advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-02-2015, 02:26 PM
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hello 1215, welcome to SBF!! the motor for all the powerlites and ccr 1000 should interchange

current machines
1-toro2450E-38419. 1-toro3000E-38435. 1-toro 3650E-38445
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1-............, TORO XL 824ps..............
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post #3 of 9 Old 03-07-2015, 09:53 PM
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I have two of these Powerlites. They are great units. I've got a 38170 and a 38172. I picked both off Craigslist. One for $45, the other for $50. Both had gunked up carbs. They'd only run with carb cleaner sprayed directly into the throat.


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Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
The machine was leaking fuel badly. It was also running rich and stalling quite often. Too often.
These units have a non-adjustable jet in the carb. It is simply a fixed jet screw (aka the bowl nut). Part number 632385. If you can, soak the nut in carb cleaner and then use some copper wire to clean out the holes. Otherwise, just replace it. Its pretty cheap and easily available via eBay.


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I now believe that something is mucked up with the float/needle in the carburetor, especially since the problem gets better as the fuel tank empties. Is this a common problem?
Yes it is a very common problem. The rubber needle seat gets eaten up by the ethanol in the gas. The needle corrodes a bit also. Neither seal adequately and they leak gas.

This site has some great info and pictures on how to service the float pin and the needle seat (including the correct direction to install it).

I'd also recommend the Tecumseh Float Tool (Part number 670377) to ease the installation and removal of the float seat.

There's a good rebuild kit available (on eBay of course). Part number, 631021B. It includes the bowl gasket, float needle, needle seat, float needle clip, and a bowl nut gasket. One problem with this kit. The bowl nut gasket is incorrect. It's too small. You'll need part number 631334A for the correct bowl nut gasket.

These units did not originally come with a float spring. I've found that they work better with one added. The float spring part number is 632386. You may need to replace the float pin also. Both of mine were corroded and did not let the float move freely. The float pin part number is 631024.


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the engine and carburetor are still intact
I would highly advise that you rebuild the carb before you investigate an engine replacement. With a properly tuned carb this model has a surprising amount of power.

Here's a great video that shows you how to adjust the governor. I had stalling issues with one of mine, until I figured out how to adjust the governor. That helped tremendously. It ran like a completely new machine. Look around the 6 minute mark of this video,

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
1. parts and best practices (do I purchase, or which is preferred: new OEM, used OEM or new/used aftermarket, where is best to purchase from) Looking for things like replacement rubber blades, the bearings at each end of the blades, engine gasket kits, the plastic screw anchors that fit into the metal frame and handle, etc.
The rubber paddles are available at Home Depot. You can special order them and they ship directly to the store for free. The paddle kit includes all the replacement hardware for the paddles. Part number is 38258

The scraper bar kit is also available from Home Depot. Again, special order with free shipping to the store. Includes all new hardware to install it. Part number is 38259.

It's recommended that you replace both at the same time. You can sometimes find both (with all the hardware) for sale on eBay.

Home Depot also has the replacement belt and spark plug also. Part numbers 38256 and 38257.

I've never had to replace the bearings off the auger shaft or any engine gaskets. The plastic screw anchors are available from Toro only. You may want to call your local Toro dealer to see if they can special order it for you. They're less than a dollar each.

Have you downloaded the parts catalog for this unit yet? It has the exploded parts diagrams and the parts numbers. Goto Toro.com, click on Customer Service, then enter in the model number. From there, click the Manuals tab, and the Parts List should be available to download.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
2. fuel & oil mixtures - is running any decent synthetic two-stroke oil @ 50:1 fine on regular 89 octane fuel? This may or may not sound crazy to some... Most of my other two strokes are from the 1960's and 1970's and/or are highly modified... this is from 1995 based on the 59xxxxx serial number. Can I run 110 leaded AVGAS or 105-110 unleaded race fuel in it? Any issues with that?
I ran 32:1 with Echo Synthetic 2-cycle oil (from Home Depot) and 93 octane pump gas from the local gas station. It ran okay. The revised Toro manuals say to run 50:1. I've run it at 50:1 and it seems to run pretty darn well. I use 93 octane from the local gas station and the Echo Synthetic 2-cycle oil. At the end of the season, I'll run it dry then put in a little bit of the TruFuel ethanol-free fuel and run it dry again. Just to make sure all the ethanol gas is out of the system when I store it for the season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
3. common issues, things to look out for, maintenance points, problems, etc.
I haven't really done much to mine. I've sanded them down a bit and re-sprayed with Rust-o-leum to control the rust a bit. I've replaced the paddles and scraper bar (there's wear indicators built into them). Replaced the spark plug and the belt. That was a few seasons ago. I just make sure they're run dry at the end of the season. Other than that, I haven't done much to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
4. upgrades and modifications: This unit has a Tecumseh HSK600 1680S (D) 4187H --98cc, 3HP motor installed. Do people modify these things? I see a few HSK845 motors online for less than $100. Would that engine plug-and-play bolt straight into the Toro unit I have? Other than simple porting are there any other modifications people do to these motors?
Like I mentioned above, get the carb rebuilt and the governor properly adjusted and you'll be surprised how much snow this little thing can move.

But, keep us posted about your HSK845 modifications.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1215 View Post
5. Exhaust. We both work nights and odd hours. While I love the sound of a two-smoker, I assume the neighbors may not at 1:00am if either of us needs to leave to get to work. Are there any OEM/Bolt-on solutions for a quieter exhaust? I have some custom exhaust baffling ideas but are there any stock/OEM/bolt on solutions that might quiet down the motor at all? There seems to be much space below the exhaust in and around the drive belt setup. Knowing that some of these are used for carting and dirt bikes, are there expansion pipes for these motors?
Please post back with what you find out. I'd love to have mine quieted down. I hate wearing the hearing protection when I'm using mine.

Last edited by warreng24; 03-07-2015 at 09:59 PM.
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Welcome to the forum 1215

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ALOHA from the paradise city. here in the unfrozen TUNDRA.

Long LIVE THE POWERSHIFT!! MAY IT NEVER RUST IN PEACE!!
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post #6 of 9 Old 10-14-2015, 02:40 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. I realize its been quite a while since this post and since I last posted.

Warreng24, I've got a few updates and a few questions. First, the HSK845 upgrade went very well. Also, as you stated, when these things are running well/tuned properly you would be shocked at how robust the stock 3hp motors are. The HSK845 is an awesome little engine and I went way overboard. I picked up three non-running parts motors, each with electric start. I picked the best one and completely rebuilt it but it took a LOT of work. Everything was completely disassembled, the bore was re-honed, combustion chamber was re-profiled, compression was bumped up to roughly 12:1 uncorrected/9:1 swept, a bigger carb (Dellorto 24/24) with matched and ported gaskets as well as shaved screws and throttle plates. I did a bunch of other little odds & ends like piston & cylinder ports, lightened and balanced the piston & connecting rod and a few other goodies. I also had the flywheel remagnetized.

Yes it was a little overboard but it was fun. I ended up needing stronger motor mounts and had to reinforce a few places but it works and runs really well. The only other thing I'll say is that the garage is now insulated and moderately heated and I'm running 110LL (110 octane low lead aviation fuel) in the motor so the compression ratio is great with that fuel and the warm/semi-heated garage will help with idle and warmup a bunch.

I also rebuilt the stock 3hp motor so we now have two of these snow throwers, a fun one and a stock one.

With regards to the exhaust, I went off the deep end just like the engine... On the HSK845 motor I had some issues holding the thing together. The motor was so overpowered that some of the brackets and plastic parts were bending/cracking when the thing revved so I took a small 150cc performance dirtbike expansion pipe and cut/welded it to fit all in & under the covers. It also doubled as structural support/bracketing which was perfect... however I think it actually made it louder but the engine runs MUCH better. I then took a silencer and added it to the end of the expansion pipe which quieted it down a huge amount, except I'm having some idle and running issues with it presently (its not done yet). I need to either play around with the baffles in the silencer or just ditch the silencer idea and accept that it's now obnoxiously loud.

The stock 3hp motor was very easy but I'm finding that the bearings on either side of the flapper wheel are going on all of the snow throwers. They are SKF 6203 bearings. Is there a good place to get them under $15 per bearing? I know bearings from my cars/bikes; are there substitutes that can be used? Any alternative sources? I know my BMW rear wheel bearings are $45/bearing at the dealer but $6 each at tractor supply for the same exact part. The SKF 6203 bearings were used in a variety of power steering and alternator applications but I can't seem to find them cheap anywhere. Thanks for any help.
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post #7 of 9 Old 10-14-2015, 12:49 PM
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Is there a good place to get them under $15 per bearing? . The SKF 6203 bearings were used in a variety of power steering and alternator applications but I can't seem to find them cheap anywhere. Thanks for any help.
Grainger has them for $5 to $7 depending if they are shielded or open face.

Radial Ball Bearings - Bearings - Grainger Industrial Supply

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post #8 of 9 Old 10-14-2015, 12:59 PM
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Plenty of them on Amazon and Ebay.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_2zlebv8id0_e

SKF 6203: Business & Industrial | eBay

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post #9 of 9 Old 10-14-2015, 03:18 PM
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1215, it sounds like you have built yourself a little mini-monster. Congratulations! Please share some photos if you get a chance!

I don't have any good answers for the bearings, but I think Grunt and Kiss4aFrog have pointed you in a good direction.

Toro Powerlite 38172
Toro 418 38282
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