Toro CCR 2400E GTS - Strange noise ringing like a bell - Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums
 
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-29-2016, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Toro CCR 2400E GTS - Strange noise ringing like a bell

I wonder if anyone has worked on these machines and may have an idea what's going on.

I recently acquired a CCR 2400E GTS, Model 38414, Serial 8904421

It was supposedly not running and was making a strange metallic bell sound.

My first thought was a broken connecting rod that was clanging inside the engine... BUT.... the engine runs!

Before knowing that the engine runs, I gently pulled on the starter and heard a metallic bell-ringing sound. I could not pin down where it was coming from.

I then stood the machine up on the augers and rocked it backwards and forwards by about 20 or 30 degrees. Once again I heard the bell-ringing sound. (See video)

I was so convinced that this must be a connecting rod issue that I got careless and dangerous.

I took off the top and bottom covers, loosened the control panel and didn't care too much when the kill switch terminal became disconnected. (Note to self... disconnecting the kill terminal meant the engine was now live!!)

Still trying to figure out where the bell sound was coming from, I gently pulled the starter rope a few times listening for the sound. WHAM!! The engine burst into action and started running strong and loud (I'd already removed the exhaust muffler).

I fumbled around and reconnected the kill terminal and the engine died.
Then I pulled the spark-plug boot. (Note to self... you know better than that... always always always disconnect the spark plug boot... even on a dead engine!!)

So now I'm totally confused. How could the engine run if the connecting rod was dangling like a bell clapper??

I suppose it's possible, maybe, that the connecting rod is half connected and half hanging... but if that's the case... it would not swing so freely when I tip the machine 20 or 30 degrees... would it?

I've still got the bell-ringing symptom and I guess I will need to dismantle the machine and remove the engine. It's not possible to remove the flywheel cover without doing some serious dismantling. That's the trouble with these small 2 cycle machines.. everything is packed in tight and fairly inaccessible.

I'm half expecting that something may show up inside the flywheel cover. Maybe a loose magnet? Dunno.

Anyway I wondered if anyone was familiar enough with these machines to suggest what else it might be that is making the bell sound.

Why do I keep calling it a bell sound? Well... because it really does sound like a bell. The sound is quite "pure". Certainly metal on metal. it's not a clanking sound.. it has a "ring" to it.

Any thoughts or ideas?

By the way, I don't know what the engine is. I read somewhere that the engines on these Toros have gone from Tecumseh to Suzuki and then to Briggs and Stratton. So far I have not found any markings on the engine so I don't know what I've got.

A photo to remind what these look like and a Video of the metallic sound:
For some reason known only to google, the picture gets lost on the video as I rock it back and forwards, but the sound is there.
https://goo.gl/photos/ivzCQyUh5SmRv1Gk6

Last edited by unknown1; 03-30-2016 at 12:51 PM.
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-30-2016, 09:32 AM
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That doesn't look like a tec to me - but I think I would pull the flywheel and see what you got under there. I seriously doubt it's a rod. The flywheel is more likely to ring than the block anyway...... Those CCR's are pretty good machines. I have always been a fan of them. Maybe somebody can ID the motor for you......




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post #3 of 9 Old 03-30-2016, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad69cat View Post
That doesn't look like a tec to me - but I think I would pull the flywheel and see what you got under there. I seriously doubt it's a rod. The flywheel is more likely to ring than the block anyway...... Those CCR's are pretty good machines. I have always been a fan of them. Maybe somebody can ID the motor for you......
Thanks for the reply... yes I think I need to take a dive into the flywheel area looking for something loose.

By the way, I found a website from a group of students who dismantled and reassembled a similar machine as part of a school project.
There are lots of pictures showing every step of their work.

Group 6 - Toro CCR 2400 E GTS Snow-blower - GICL Wiki

This page shows the steps in detail
http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/index.php/Gate_2_Link

Also, for anyone wanting specific instructions on how to dismantle these machines, this Toro service document summarizes the steps starting at page 37

http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/images/0/0...ice_manual.pdf
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post #4 of 9 Old 03-31-2016, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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Problem diagnosed!

The electric starter uses a ring-gear which is supposed to be attached to the flywheel with three bolts.
Those bolts must have vibrated loose over time so the ring-gear was jangling around loose on the flywheel.
Three new bolts should solve the problem and allow the electric starter to work too (I never bothered to test that yet).

The "Bell" sound was the metal ring-gear clanging against the metal flywheel.

Need to identify this engine so I can look up the parts diagram to see what size those bolts are.
Not found any engine etchings yet. The ring-gear says 95-1789

I added pictures to the album showing the ring-gear and the flywheel.

Pictures:
https://goo.gl/photos/ivzCQyUh5SmRv1Gk6

Last edited by unknown1; 03-31-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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post #5 of 9 Old 03-31-2016, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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Correction.. what I thought were three bolt holes... are actually un-threaded.
I assume therefore that they are just alignment guides.

The ring gear seems to be physically bolted on with two much narrower diameter threaded "bolts" which have sheared off in my case.

In the photo, the three yellow arrows line up with un-threaded holes.
No idea if they should have inserts pushed into them or not.

The two red arrows point to holes that line up with very flimsy bolts (sheared off).

I can't understand why they didn't use the heavy-duty (yellow arrow) holes to bolt on the ring-gear.
The (red arrow) threaded bolts are too flimsy.

Photos:
https://goo.gl/photos/ivzCQyUh5SmRv1Gk6


Can anyone tell what engine this is so I can go hunting for an IPL?

Last edited by unknown1; 03-31-2016 at 08:12 PM.
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post #6 of 9 Old 04-01-2016, 12:20 AM
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Hello stuart, the parts list indicates your motor is Briggs & Stratton made.

https://www.toro.com/en/parts/partdetails/?id=19868

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post #7 of 9 Old 04-01-2016, 12:06 PM
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I think this is the correct Briggs service manual for your engine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-g...FIUFE0ems/view

Toro 8/24 (38080) 1989
Toro 721-QZR (38743) 2015 (Hemi Predator Power)

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post #8 of 9 Old 04-01-2016, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunt View Post
I think this is the correct Briggs service manual for your engine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-g...FIUFE0ems/view
Thanks once again "Grunt". I can tell from that manual that the design of the flywheel has changed over time.

I am guessing that Toro/B&S used to have one style of flywheel and ring gear (without the three purpose-built mounting holes) and then switched to using parts from their suppliers that use the newer flywheel that DOES have three mounting holes.

However, I'm also guessing that the guys on the production-line ignored those three mounting points and chose instead to drill through the flywheel to add two flimsy mounting bolts "just like we've always done".

A triumph of habit/consistency over common sense!

So far, following down that path, I have drilled out the two red-arrow mounting bolts and bought some low-quality bolts that go all the way through the flywheel and the ring-gear and I've put a locking nut on the front side.

I could not get grade 8 from the local ACE store because the bolts are too narrow. It doesn't look very pretty or strong to me... and the bolts look like they could shear off again over time.

I guess I would do much better to tap out the three ready-made holes in the flywheel (pointed at by the yellow arrows) and insert three strong grade 8 bolts into those pre-existing holes on the ring gear. Trouble is I don't have a drill and tap set that fits and I'm feeling lazy.

It seems to me that THREE wider grade 8 bolts have to be better than TWO narrow low-grade bolts.
In fact, come to think of it...I could use BOTH sets of bolts and therefore end up having FIVE mounting bolts instead of TWO.

https://goo.gl/photos/FiRBA46YHL8Tb4Mh8

Last edited by unknown1; 04-01-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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post #9 of 9 Old 04-01-2016, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Repair complete. After all's said and done, this was just a bunch of dismantling, add two bolts, then reassemble.

It's amazing how well this little engine starts and runs... not so much on the first pull... more like on the first half-pull.
Electric start fires up instantly.

Another Craigslist "dead machine" resurrected. When he said it "doesn't start" he must have only been using the electric start... and of course that would not work if the ring gear was free-spinning.

Photos:
https://goo.gl/photos/ovJkhwsqhk4qZx4b9

Last edited by unknown1; 04-01-2016 at 09:27 PM.
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