Ariens efi problems

tadawson said:

I see huge benefits . . . Nothing to gum up, better fuel economy, likely longer plug life due to more accurate mixtures, better power (again, better mixtures), nothing open to air to gum up, no linkages to bend/break/lose or get sticky as dirt accumulates, no mechanical gov to fail and better speed regulation . . . and a controllable throttle (like used to be the norm) that has all but been forgotten due to EPA regs . . . (and I am not considering the detail that carbs will likely vanish before too long, since they aren't precise enough to hit emission limits. Not that I call that a plus to *me*, but it is a reality of this country and time . . .)

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ST1100A said:

Many other engine makers have been using EFI for years now. Briggs, Kohler, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki to name a few. They all have a lot of experience with them on many different applications to see how they perform and what they should and should not be used on.
Many different Emergency Service Providers specify Non EFI engines for their equipment because of breakdowns in the "Field". They can't afford to have their stuff breakdown and not be back up and running again within a few minutes time. If they do have an EFI powered unit, they also have a Non EFI powered unit as an Emergency Standby.
To keep all of the "Back-up" parts on hand in case of an emergency would cost them way too much money and is not cost effective considering what the EFI would save them.
The same goes for the Commercial user and the Homeowner. The small engine EFI units just are not reliable enough yet, in the future they may be, but just not at present. That is what scares most users away from them.
I'm sure in the future they will be a Common item if the Government does not relax their crazy emission standards.
You look at many commercial users who rely on having their equipment up and running to complete their jobs, and when their engine fails, they are out of money until it is up and running again. They don't have the time for the loss of said equipment to be down for an extended period of time, it has to be up and running ASAP, plus the cost of repairs.
A simple part on the EFI system could cost them a couple hundred dollars or more, even when troubleshooted quickly, and to keep all of those parts as "spare parts" in supply for the emergency fix will cost them thousands of dollars.
There is no "Real Advantage" with EFI for people to use it. Not enough fuel conservation, it doesn't drop emissions that much, doesn't make engine starting any easier than manually operating a choke and controlling throttle operation, maybe for a Lazy person. Mechanical governors can maintain engine speed just as well for a fraction of the cost, and much easier to adjust or repair. Then you have to look at the reliability of the system, the diagnoses and cost differences.
Some of us do understand EFI operation very well, and all the numerous components that goes with it. When you start talking "Open Loop" and "Closed Loop" which some engines are using both, you start confusing the average person and scaring them away from anything with EFI.
When the Government starts getting away with forcing us to go with the simple "Open Loop" fuel injection on a small engine, it will be a short time later and they will force us to use the "Closed Loop" system on a small walk behind lawnmower, and the extra cost added to that will be incredible. Then add service, parts and repair to that as an extra cost.
In today's world people want things to be simple that they can easily fix by themselves and are not expensive.
I am an experienced EFI Certified Technician and I know and speak for others that it is not as great as it is advertised. Yes, in the future it may be, once it is perfected and becomes 100% "Bulletproof", but just not at present, it still has a long way to go yet with portable small engines.
Right now everybody wants to be able to repair their equipment by themselves and not have to wait and spend a lot of money taking it to a shop to get repaired.

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tadawson said:

There are so many errors in what you just posted, I don't know where to start . . .



First, the Arien's system in discussion here has about *5* parts - hardly a lot to stock for a business owning multiple units.



There is *NOTHING* to troubleshoot in the e-gov, and they regulate a **** of a lot better than mechanical. The ECU simply reads the frequency of the power off the stator - you know, the part that has been running headlights forever? It gives a perfect signal to determine RPM with *ZERO* extra parts or sensors . . .



And, keep in mind, that ignition modules have had solid state electronics in them for years, but yet you don't go on your rant over them . . . even though they are in a much higher risk environment, both bolted to the block *and* having high voltage rumbling around in them . . .



Unless you have seen Arien's failure rate statistics (unlikely) your claim of a high failure rate is a guess at best, and more likely a misguided statement or outright lie to justify your bias . . . And failure rates of other mfg's systems are irrelevant to this conversation . . .


And information such as "open loop" or "closed loop" only scared away idiots, who probably should not own anything beyond a shovel if they are terrified by knowledge . . .


Oh, looking at Jack's parts list, the major components for the EFI for a Plat 24 AX369 are the ECU at $149, fuel pump at $99 and throttle body at $161 . . . Not seeing the block temp sensor, but I'd bet under $20, and all other sensors are on the ECU itself . . . Battery is about $20 . . . Looks like the carb for a similar engine will run you $104 for the *correct* one and not some Chinese no-name defecate . . .



And likely most of the EFI components are the same on all engines - about the only difference would be the ECU software flash, so different PN but still the same physical board . . .



So, what's my point? You could replace the *ENTIRE* system for under the $500 you rant about (and the chance of needing to do that is negligible, unless Goob is shotgunning parts and not troubleshooting . . . . The most expensive in the throttle body at $172, vs the *RIGHT* carb at $104 . . . More, but not by an amazing margin . . . (of course, I consider carb replacement since some folks seem obsessed with it . . . my experience is that I have never found one that I could not clean and/or rebuild . . . but I guess some folks abuse equipment to the point that it can get to that . . . and apparently, I'm not one of them . . . ).



And I think of all the time that can be wasted (and see it here often) by folks that screw up carb and gov linkages . .. .that costs $$$ for someone to sort out as well, and since that stuff isn't on an EFI machine, you can't pay to fix what you can't break . . .



I do feel sorry for the folks that work on this stuff commercially . . . end users do so much insanely stupid stuff just to save a few cents (and invariably cost themselves more) that I can't say that I would want to be in the biz. When I fix something of mine (at least on major service), the plan is to try to get back to as close as factory new condition as possible . . . (which is why I have a 30+ year old mower that runs/specs/measures like new, and cost a lot less than it would have to replace it and get something inferior . . . ).



And note that *every* one of these parts is available for public sale . . . So, lessee . . . The service docs are online, no special equipment is required, and parts are available. Someone couldn't work on this themselves why again? (Other than falling for the fear mongering?).



But the good news it that folks still have a choice! Myself, I regret that I didn't get the EFI instead of the carbed Platinum last season more by the day . . . I just need to find out how much my butt will hurt if I try to trade up . . .


(And the throttle issue isn't lazy, it's the simple fact that the EPA has pretty much made the use of a *full range* throttle (IE can run any speed between idle and full . . . ) non viable anymore. And no, I don't want to hear any of the BS about how you shouldn't do that when a) Ariens says it's fine on the EFI and b) I've needed to do that for years, and magically, and golly gee, no ill effects other than better control of where I land snow . . . ). (Not getting into *that* discussion again . . .).

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tadawson said:

You have been repairing, specifically the Ariens system commercially? If so, th's relevant . . . other brands, not so much (if at all . . .).

And every failure report (I think maybe two . . ) I have read here has been early, and fully warranted . . . (And no, I don't consider *two* to be the same as *many* . . .

And of course an ignition module has better insulation! I runs high voltage! The ECU runs on 8 max, so duh, it doesn't need as much (and is likely potted or coated, which gives great insulation as well as making it pretty much immune to environmental factors).

People get loud when things fail, and not so much when things work. Not sure what Ariens sales are on EFI, but a number of sellers in MI are stocking the Deluxe with EFI, and don't appear to be having any issues. The more formal dealers will order on request, but don't stock, so hardly a refusal . . . likely more due to folks being cheap . . .

Were Arien's not an 0lder, established brand with an excellent history of support, my major concern would be ongoing support. Fly by night brand or offshore, I won't touch it at any price.

And yes, I'm not a typical end user. I have found very few elextronic devices that I can't work on, and also build some custom stuff . . . I have both machinery *and* electronics 30+ years old, and both have held up flawlessly (just the electronics typically take a lot less effort to keep running . . .). ****, we have a Heathkit stereo receiver we build in the early 70's that has never failed, and works pretty much as well as the day it was completed, close to 50 years old. Electronics just don't have much to wear . . .

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