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And you suffer in the meantime, since a new factory cannot spin up in minutes, and you have no product. . . . They've got you, you just can't admit it . . . Read the book, I think you will recognize a lot . . . and yes, I'd love to think things are getting better, but with the monopolies created by Chinese dumping, if anything, I would expect things to be worse . . .
 

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And who said the company is dumb enough to only have ONE supplier, We have a few and 2 in china and the one we use the most we have engineers sent over pretty often to make sure they are running our parts to our standard. We are a huge customer and to lose us would be bad for them, Go have fun with your book, It must be a law everyone follows the book, Just like FB. It's on FB it must be real right???
 

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If you read carefully this really means assembled in the USA.
I don't know what percentage is necessary to say Manufactured in the USA.
If a certain percentage of a product is ASSEMBLED in the USA, it can be considered MADE IN USA, even if all the parts are made in China.

I forget what that exact percentage is.
 

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The Chinese are NOT in that much control, My job deals with a lot of chinese iems and if there quality is NOT what was agreed on they get the entire shipment returned and payment stopped. If they don't want to stay with the agreement and quality level agreed upon, There competing chinese company will.
Yes, exactly. I did exactly that this year. Sent it back, told them to correct the problem, and make it to spec.

It's good to have a QC guy on the ground in China to keep the factory in check.
 

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And who said the company is dumb enough to only have ONE supplier, We have a few and 2 in china and the one we use the most we have engineers sent over pretty often to make sure they are running our parts to our standard. We are a huge customer and to lose us would be bad for them, Go have fun with your book, It must be a law everyone follows the book, Just like FB. It's on FB it must be real right???
Nope, not Facebook. A real, credible, author. If you have not read it, you cannot comment without just spewing nonsense . . . . and perhaps what is described is the very reason you dual source . . . your management knows the risks

http://www.economist.com/node/13642306
 

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Yes, exactly. I did exactly that this year. Sent it back, told them to correct the problem, and make it to spec.

It's good to have a QC guy on the ground in China to keep the factory in check.
And the day they tell you they will do that for just $x.xx more per part or pound sand (as has happened frequently with Chinese mfgs.) you do what, exactly?
 

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My comment has nothing todo with that book, just that we have things made in China and made to our standards or they lose buisiness, and if any company only has just one source for anything, they are run by fools, not just on a quality aspect but what if there was a fire, or a machine explodes, should we not sell because they can’t deliver, no we buy from a different source and keep our products selling. Only a fool only has one source for any resource. And having more than one keeps the most purchased from making higher quality because they do not want to lose money either.
 

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And the day they tell you they will do that for just $x.xx more per part or pound sand (as has happened frequently with Chinese mfgs.) you do what, exactly?
How frequently has it happened? To who? Do you have a situation that you can point to?

Have the next factory lined up. That's the beautiful thing about capitalism.

Relationships, it's all about relationships, even in China. Any factory can do that regardless of their location.
 

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How frequently has it happened? To who? Do you have a situation that you can point to?

Have the next factory lined up. That's the beautiful thing about capitalism.

Relationships, it's all about relationships, even in China. Any factory can do that regardless of their location.
Read the book!

The author worked in China working relationships between Chinese and US companies, and it is his factual account of seeing these activities over and over and over . . . . (and no, I'm not trying to sell a book, but it's the best first hand account of these practices I have seen, and has not (and likely cannot) be disputed, since all was documented first hand by the writer.)

And yes, any factory *could* do that, but the Chinese do it with impunity, since they have the Chinese government and courts making them virtually untouchable, unlike using a supplier elsewhere where getting a contract enforced or penalties awarded would actually be possible.
 

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That article in The Economist was interesting (thanks for posting it), what concerns me most is the lack of universal quality/safety standards. The fact that companies can pick and choose who certifies their products. I would hate to see more toxic children's toys hurt the innocent for the sake of profit and we all know this has happened.
 

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the only thing that i wonder about are these Chinese Honda clone engines. it seems like they are set so lean from the factory that i am guessing most will surge within a year or 2 due to just breaking the engine in and needing more fuel or due to dirt and a tiny blockage is all it takes.

heck i have a toro 621e with a 4 stroke Chinese engine that will only run on half choke. The guy a bought it off of said it was like that since new when he bought it.

also toro snowmasters are starting to pop up surging already.
Not my Toro Snowmaster. One pull on the first start of the season, and purrs like a kitten. VERY happy with my China Honda knockoff actually. Never thought I would be..and did not want to be... but I am
 

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That article in The Economist was interesting (thanks for posting it), what concerns me most is the lack of universal quality/safety standards. The fact that companies can pick and choose who certifies their products. I would hate to see more toxic children's toys hurt the innocent for the sake of profit and we all know this has happened.
What post is this article, because it's not what I witness, it doesn't sound right.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I am saying it is the exception, not the rules. Factories will cut corners wherever they can, it's up to the contracting company to make sure it's right.
 

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Post #285.

Scot
Thanks.....

And sigh....... I don't know where to start. The article is more of an endless list of clichés than it is based in reason and fact. Honestly, I'm not impressed.

The only fact they got right is the problem with knock offs. But ya know what, that's going to be a problem if you have a good product, and don't patent it in every country around the world. And even then, try to enforce it. It's just the nature of manufacturing.

What we did in one situation was had the circuit boards made in China, and had the software put on them in the USA to avoid just this situation.

Second, China is losing its grip on being the "world's sweat shop". Packistan, India, and Milaysia are quickly becoming more involved in manufacturing, ESPECIALLY in textile (India) or Woodworking or Tech (Milysia).

For example, Fender is building guitars in Milaysia that rival some of the best ones made in the USA at a fraction of the price. A Milaysian Fender would sell for $600, would be a $2000 guitar made in the USA.

When I sell to companies, let's use an example like COKE. They require that one of THEIR people go to the factory and do inspections specifically looking for human rights violations. THEY do the inspection and they don't tell you when. All, and I mean EVERY, large company does this. It's not what it used to be

The date on that article puts it at almost 10 years old. A LOT of things have changed in the past 5 years, never mind the past 10.

And let's not be hypocrites. Everyone wants made in America, 100%, until they step up to the cash register. That's where everyone's pockets get real deep, and their arms get real short. They reach for the cheapest thing that will do the job. So who ya gonna blame for that?
 

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jsup. more than 100 years ago henry ford started paying his employees far in excess of what they could earn elsewhere because he knew if he wanted to sell them his product they had to earn enough to pay for the automobiles. i'm a baby boomer and paid $1,400 for a new 1989 ariens snow blower. that amount was the going price. it wasn't until the 1990s that all of the cheap chinese goods hit the retail stores over here and put many americans out of work. i recently read what i consider a very ironic statement. why will american companies hire more workers. there is no one to purchase the additional product.
 

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jsup. more than 100 years ago henry ford started paying his employees far in excess of what they could earn elsewhere because he knew if he wanted to sell them his product they had to earn enough to pay for the automobiles. i'm a baby boomer and paid $1,400 for a new 1989 ariens snow blower. that amount was the going price. it wasn't until the 1990s that all of the cheap chinese goods hit the retail stores over here and put many americans out of work. i recently read what i consider a very ironic statement. why will american companies hire more workers. there is no one to purchase the additional product.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just giving the reality of the situation, and you seem to agree with that.

Everyone is a patriot until they reach into their pocket. Then, it's all about the Bengimans.

Look, let's take me for example. There are ZERO factories in the USA that make some of the products I sell. So what's my option? Not sell it? Even if it pays my mortgage? It's easy to tell someone "just go sell something else you can make in the USA, but that's just a flippant statement made by an ignoramus.

For another product that I TRIED to get made in the USA, the price USA manufacturers were giving me was near the upper retail price that anyone would pay for the product. If you sell a product for $10, you get to keep it for $20. Nothing personal with USA contract factories, they act like they're the only ones allowed to make money in a deal. Especially when they are the FURTHEREST from the customer. Reality is, the person closest to the customer makes the most money.

Now, I make NOTHING in the USA because either there are no factories, or it's price prohibitive, as described above.

However, I have my products shipped over, that keeps long shore man employed. Once it hits the docks, I have to have truckers move it to my warehouse. Because manufacturing isn't local, I can't do just in time, I have to keep more inventory than I need, that's business for my warehouse. I go to trade shows, I did four this year, pumping about $50,000 into the economy. Restaurants, the venue people, etc... and I'm a small company. I can't do that without china.

And finally the retailers that sell my stuff, stuff that wouldn't be made if it had to be made here, make money on it.

There's a lot more that goes into the economy than just manufacturing.
 

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One more thought. Something I always found entertaining to watch people go nuts about:


Toyota builds a plant in the USA...... OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE MONEY IS GOING TO JAPAN HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!

GM Builds a plant in China......same people......OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE JOBS ARE GOING TO CHINA HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!



A lot of people have a very simplistic view of economics, and rather have a bumper sticker cause, than a real understanding of the issues.
 

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One more thought. Something I always found entertaining to watch people go nuts about:


Toyota builds a plant in the USA...... OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE MONEY IS GOING TO JAPAN HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!

GM Builds a plant in China......same people......OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE JOBS ARE GOING TO CHINA HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!



A lot of people have a very simplistic view of economics, and rather have a bumper sticker cause, than a real understanding of the issues.

I think the majority if Americans are not really complaining about Toyota or its higher end nameplate Lexus creating U.S. jobs.

Of course the shrinking UAW and American workers would prefer to have a job with good benefits, job security and a pension. We know that to remain competitive in today's economy the good 'ol days are long gone. I don't disagree with you regarding Americans wanting a good deal, to accumulate more stuff. We have become accustomed to our dollar going further than it did prior to the '90's as another member stated he paid nearly $1500. for an Ariens machine in the '80's. Look at flat screen TV's I am old enough to remember the first small plasma TV's going for about $12,000. at Costco. We all benefit from economies of scale. You will now get a bigger and better picture from a $300. Vizio. The TV repairman is now a dying breed it is cheaper to replace or upgrade than to fix in most cases. Many will feel the same about some of tge snowblowers being sold today. I know we discussed this in previous threads and I agree that lower end MTD's of today do serve a purpose and a market. We now live in a disposable world, companies don't want to build a product that lasts forever anymore, it's not good business, therefore planned obscelesence. Apple has been exposed for slowing down their older products so consimers will upgrade to their new products. I don't think I have ever owned an Apple accessory that outlasted its 1 year warranty by more than a couple of months i.e. headsets or chargers they are masters of what I mentioned above. However I am generally a big fan of the designs and functionality of their products.

To try to keep the topic inline with this forum, I am not convinced that China made products are of equal quality, though they have improved. I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of the steel that Ariens used on their '60's and '70's machines was likely heavier gauge and better quality than what they are using today. Snowblowers have not changed that much more bells and whistles: heated hand grips, electric chute controls, slightly tighter tolerances in housing design. However the consumer has not benefited from economies of scale as we have with electronics. With snowblowers build quality has diminished along with the cheaper prices relative to what they cost when they were fully made in the U.S.A.. Perhaps some small engine mechanics on this forum can weigh in on whether these newer china built clone engines are as good or better than the older U.S. built Briggs or Tecumseh engines, or if some data on mean time between failure can be obtained to make a true comparison in reliability, likely too early to tell for sure.

Regarding GM's factory in China it will be interesting to see how this plays out, they're definitely taking a risk. In all fairness to Hyundai they did a 180 over the last 10 years their cars were among the least reliable vehicles with the worst resale value and now the South Koreans are churning out a quality product. I am also a fan of Kumho tire. Interesting topic that can be debated for years to come.
 

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I think the majority if Americans are not really complaining about Toyota or its higher end nameplate Lexus creating U.S. jobs.
It was just an example about what has been said, by the "same" people. I guess I used a dated example. My bad.

Of course the shrinking UAW and American workers would prefer to have a job with good benefits, job security and a pension.
Actually, the non union shops have voted NO on a union every time it came up, because they were getting paid more and had great benefits. As far as the pension goes, they are like unions, a relic of a bygone era that is no longer sustainable. Pensions are killing many companies, and states because they are based NOT on what a person saves, but how long they worked.

I'd prefer a job that I can go in when I felt, do what I want, and pays me $1million a year for life, top shelf health benefits but reality says differently.


We know that to remain competitive in today's economy the good 'ol days are long gone. I don't disagree with you regarding Americans wanting a good deal, to accumulate more stuff. We have become accustomed to our dollar going further than it did prior to the '90's as another member stated he paid nearly $1500. for an Ariens machine in the '80's. Look at flat screen TV's I am old enough to remember the first small plasma TV's going for about $12,000. at Costco. We all benefit from economies of scale.
You will now get a bigger and better picture from a $300. Vizio. The TV repairman is now a dying breed it is cheaper to replace or upgrade than to fix in most cases. Many will feel the same about some of tge snowblowers being sold today. I know we discussed this in previous threads and I agree that lower end MTD's of today do serve a purpose and a market. We now live in a disposable world, companies don't want to build a product that lasts forever anymore, it's not good business, therefore planned obscelesence. Apple has been exposed for slowing down their older products so consimers will upgrade to their new products. I don't think I have ever owned an Apple accessory that outlasted its 1 year warranty by more than a couple of months i.e. headsets or chargers they are masters of what I mentioned above. However I am generally a big fan of the designs and functionality of their products.
I agree with all of that. Funny, I was in tech, video conferencing when it was in its infancy, and we sold plasmas, Pioneer 42 inch to be exact, for $15,000 at the time.

I make products that will last years, where the typical "run of the mill" version lasts days, maybe weeks. I believe in making a quality product at a fair price. A very small portion of the purchasing public will pay for it.

I despise Apple. So...:D

To try to keep the topic inline with this forum, I am not convinced that China made products are of equal quality, though they have improved.
You can get any quality product you want made in China. Every TV, every computer, every I-Phone is made in china, and people will argue that many are of "superb quality".

I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of the steel that Ariens used on their '60's and '70's machines was likely heavier gauge and better quality than what they are using today.
By quality I guess you're speaking to the thickness, and weight, not the chemical composition. Engineers are funny people, they always want to build the best. The biggest, baddest, fastest, whatever. Accountants make them build to a number that the product can be sold at a profit. Is thicker always "better"? IDK. I use local landmarks as an example. Look at the Polaski Skyway (google a picture) vs. the George Washington Bridge. The GWB looks flimsy by comparison, but that's because of engineering advances.

Snowblowers have not changed that much more bells and whistles: heated hand grips, electric chute controls, slightly tighter tolerances in housing design. However the consumer has not benefited from economies of scale as we have with electronics. With snowblowers build quality has diminished along with the cheaper prices relative to what they cost when they were fully made in the U.S.A.. Perhaps some small engine mechanics on this forum can weigh in on whether these newer china built clone engines are as good or better than the older U.S. built Briggs or Tecumseh engines, or if some data on mean time between failure can be obtained to make a true comparison in reliability, likely too early to tell for sure.
I think there's enough evidence on the china engines to make that call, especially if you consider the combined "work hours", but it's still anecdotal.

It's funny, these things are direct knockoffs of a Honda. So much to the point that the INTERNAL parts are interchangeable. Slap a Honda label on it, and people fall to their knees to worship it, take the label off and it's "questionable Chinese junk" .

MTBF would be interesting to see, on both older briggs and new clones.

Regarding GM's factory in China it will be interesting to see how this plays out, they're definitely taking a risk. In all fairness to Hyundai they did a 180 over the last 10 years their cars were among the least reliable vehicles with the worst resale value and now the South Koreans are churning out a quality product. I am also a fan of Kumho tire. Interesting topic that can be debated for years to come.
I don't know if you remember. A few years back, maybe a decade or so, Hyundai said "we're going to compete with Honda and Toyota in five years". People laughed. Who's laughing now? My daughter drives a Sonata, she's 17. She LOVES the car, and to be honest, it's not a bad vehicle. They are, however, awfully proud of their parts. They aren't cheap.
 
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