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Discussion Starter #21
OK, thanks everyone. I'll probably make a decision in the next week or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Well, I read the 150 +/- reviews on the Harbor Freight web site. So, I think I am comfortable going with the Predator 212cc engine.

In looking at the specs (Torque, HP, RPM) the math does not seem to work.

Specs say . . .

> max torque is 8.1 Ft-lbs. at 2500 RPM
> HP is 6.5
> Max RPM is 3800

Well 8.1 ft-lbs at 2500 RPM is 3.86 HP
8.1 Ft-lbs at 3800 RPM is 5.86 HP

So, I do not see how they are getting to 6.5 HP anywhere along the 'Torque-HP-RPM' curve. I am wondering if the torque spec is low and the engine is getting more like 9.5 Ft-lbs. ???

I would assume the max HP is achieved somewhere between the 2500 RPM and 3800 RPM points.

Anyway, the reviews indicate that it has power-a-plenty versus 5, 6 and even 7 hp engines that it replaced. So, I'm good with that. Just found the specs peculiar and the associated math not 'adding up'.
 

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Well, I read the 150 +/- reviews on the Harbor Freight web site. So, I think I am comfortable going with the Predator 212cc engine.

In looking at the specs (Torque, HP, RPM) the math does not seem to work.

Specs say . . .

> max torque is 8.1 Ft-lbs. at 2500 RPM
> HP is 6.5
> Max RPM is 3800

Well 8.1 ft-lbs at 2500 RPM is 3.86 HP
8.1 Ft-lbs at 3800 RPM is 5.86 HP

So, I do not see how they are getting to 6.5 HP anywhere along the 'Torque-HP-RPM' curve. I am wondering if the torque spec is low and the engine is getting more like 9.5 Ft-lbs. ???

I would assume the max HP is achieved somewhere between the 2500 RPM and 3800 RPM points.

Anyway, the reviews indicate that it has power-a-plenty versus 5, 6 and even 7 hp engines that it replaced. So, I'm good with that. Just found the specs peculiar and the associated math not 'adding up'.

You are way over-analizing this. Many people with 21 , 22, 24 inch machines HERE have used that engine and are happy, even posted videos of the performance of that engine on a snowblower, combined with impeller kit it throws further than your old engine ever would.

As for the torque specs, hogwash ! It's sold as a summer engine with lean jets even for summer use. Give it cold air and rejet for winter temps and you got yourself a satifying amount of torque..

Harbor freight reviews are mostly out-of-box performance on a tiller or logsplitter in warm temps so even though it's good to read them for a general idea, rthe folks here on the forum are the ones with the winter experience with these Predators.

You will be in that happy croud after your done with it and happily toss some snow with your quieter smoother engine bolted on ;-)
 

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You are way over-analizing this. Many people with 21 , 22, 24 inch machines HERE have used that engine and are happy, even posted videos of the performance of that engine on a snowblower, combined with impeller kit it throws further than your old engine ever would.

As for the torque specs, hogwash ! It's sold as a summer engine with lean jets even for summer use. Give it cold air and rejet for winter temps and you got yourself a satifying amount of torque..

Harbor freight reviews are mostly out-of-box performance on a tiller or logsplitter in warm temps so even though it's good to read them for a general idea, rthe folks here on the forum are the ones with the winter experience with these Predators.

You will be in that happy croud after your done with it and happily toss some snow with your quieter smoother engine bolted on ;-)
Either the torque specs are a typo, or the HP is a lie.
Math doesn't lie nor is it ever hogwash.



I'm also betting a 6.5HP Honda clone isn't more powerful than an 8HP Tecumseh. The Tecumseh is likely rated gross which means the muffler costs us a little something but not much. The 6.5HP may be on par with a new 7HP Tecumseh but MORE than an 8? I highly doubt it.

Those are my feelings anyway.


For comparison, a real McCoy $389 196cc Honda GX200 is rated 5.5HP and peak torque of 9.1ftlb NET. Can a barely larger $120 knockoff pull off 1HP more? :rolleyes:
 

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Either the torque specs are a typo, or the HP is a lie.
Math doesn't lie nor is it ever hogwash.



I'm also betting a 6.5HP Honda clone isn't more powerful than an 8HP Tecumseh. The Tecumseh is likely rated gross which means the muffler costs us a little something but not much. The 6.5HP may be on par with a new 7HP Tecumseh but MORE than an 8? I highly doubt it.

Those are my feelings anyway.


For comparison, a real McCoy $389 196cc Honda GX200 is rated 5.5HP and peak torque of 9.1ftlb NET. Can a barely larger $120 knockoff pull off 1HP more? :rolleyes:
The math is for a SUMMER engine so after you add the cold temps and rejet to match then you need to put the math aside and compare, which I have done and many here feel that the 6.5 Predator "feels a lot like their old 8" that blew a rod from low oil or something and the Predator feels just as powerful after the winter jetting it's probably a full hp over what it is rated on the box.

My whole point was that people here with great results are chiming in with machines already running this engine and throwing snow strong, and the "summer 6.5hp and torque numbers and EPA satisfied jetting" kinda goes out-the-window after you rejet it for 20 degree temps and gain at least a full hp. My friends Simplicity 860 with 212cc is as strong now as it was before the hole in his tec block happened.

And... if you rejetted yours for winter use you a little gained hp too.
 

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Harbor Freight has the motor on sale again for $100 this weekend. For $30 you get a one year replacement warranty. Pick up the hemi version with cast aluminum valve cover (Item 60383).
 
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The math is for a SUMMER engine so after you add the cold temps and rejet to match then you need to put the math aside and compare, which I have done and many here feel that the 6.5 Predator "feels a lot like their old 8" that blew a rod from low oil or something and the Predator feels just as powerful after the winter jetting it's probably a full hp over what it is rated on the box.

My whole point was that people here with great results are chiming in with machines already running this engine and throwing snow strong, and the "summer 6.5hp and torque numbers and EPA satisfied jetting" kinda goes out-the-window after you rejet it for 20 degree temps and gain at least a full hp. My friends Simplicity 860 with 212cc is as strong now as it was before the hole in his tec block happened.

And... if you rejetted yours for winter use you a little gained hp too.

You may have a point on the rejetting and colder air.
However, the horsepower rating doesn't match the torque rating as was pointed out. Also, they are claiming 1HP more than an actual Honda engine of similar size.

The point being, either 6.5HP isn't true, or the torque spec isn't true. After looking at Honda's spec I'm betting the 6.5HP rating is wrong and it's really 5 to 5.5HP in it's stock "summer" form.
 

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You may have a point on the rejetting and colder air.
However, the horsepower rating doesn't match the torque rating as was pointed out. Also, they are claiming 1HP more than an actual Honda engine of similar size.

The point being, either 6.5HP isn't true, or the torque spec isn't true. After looking at Honda's spec I'm betting the 6.5HP rating is wrong and it's really 5 to 5.5HP in it's stock "summer" form.
That's possible. Another maybe is Honda might be rating very conservativley and HF optimistically at the same time.

Also torque and rpm usually are rated at the optimum rpm, usually different for each spec. I like the torque curve chart I saw on the go-kart site after the modded the Predator and ran it on the Dyno. These are strong littel engines ! they had ( I forget the exact amount) like 14 hp or some crazy number.

All I know is how strong it feels. Other's have repowerd share the same opinion. Your idea on the ratings being "off" is entirely possible I don't really go by "manufacturer ratings" all that much.

Edit : Torque and HP (not RPM) goofed
 

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That's possible. Another maybe is Honda might be rating very conservativley and HF optimistically at the same time.

Also torque and rpm usually are rated at the optimum rpm, usually different for each spec. I like the torque curve chart I saw on the go-kart site after the modded the Predator and ran it on the Dyno. These are strong littel engines ! they had ( I forget the exact amount) like 14 hp or some crazy number.

All I know is how strong it feels. Other's have repowerd share the same opinion. Your idea on the ratings being "off" is entirely possible I don't really go by "manufacturer ratings" all that much.

True,

But as tpenfield said, the stated max torque even @ 3800 rpm doesn't give even close to 6.5HP. You would need 9 ftlb @ 3800 rpm for 6.5HP.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the Predator engines are bad. As you may have seen in another thread I was even considering one but decided to fix my Tec instead due to the work involved.

I probably would've went with the next size larger engine though just because. If I'm doing the work, and spending the money why not get a little more muscle while I'm at it.
 

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You can't apply science and math to advertised engine ratings. It's advertising and you have to expect some ..... wishful thinking.

It's like internet dating. The lady you saw and corresponded with almost never looks like the picture you first saw on line when you actually meet. :eek:
 

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You can't apply science and math to advertised engine ratings. It's advertising and you have to expect some ..... wishful thinking.

It's like internet dating. The lady you saw and corresponded with almost never looks like the picture you first saw on line when you actually meet. :eek:

I met my wife on IRC back in 98.
:p
 

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You can't apply science and math to advertised engine ratings. It's advertising and you have to expect some ..... wishful thinking.

It's like internet dating. The lady you saw and corresponded with almost never looks like the picture you first saw on line when you actually meet. :eek:
Yeah the "manufacturer rating" has to be taken lightly. :rolleyes:

And the photos of the gals are most likely all photoshopped :eek:
 

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You can't apply science and math to advertised engine ratings. It's advertising and you have to expect some ..... wishful thinking.

It's like internet dating. The lady you saw and corresponded with almost never looks like the picture you first saw on line when you actually meet. :eek:
I agree, advertised ratings are always optimistic. I have never read a post about the Predator 212 cc motor performance (read power) as being below expectations unless improperly jetted for altitude or cold.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
Just to muddy the waters . . . I found this YouTube video of a supposedly stock Predator 212 on a dyno. Sounds like they took the governor off though . . .



Says 10.25 HP per the dyno

So, probably the specs are on the 'safe' side . . . and not abiding by the math.

Considering that these engines are used for go-karts & mini bikes, they probably wind up pretty well.
 

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Just to muddy the waters . . . I found this YouTube video of a supposedly stock Predator 212 on a dyno. Sounds like they took the governor off though . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxXjJNUw4x0

Says 10.25 HP per the dyno

So, probably the specs are on the 'safe' side . . . and not abiding by the math.

Considering that these engines are used for go-karts & mini bikes, they probably wind up pretty well.

The engine clearly isn't stock even though they claim it is, and we never see the actual dyno screen.

It's a useless video.
 

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These get modded with billet crank arms and flywheels for racing Kart's and mini bikes. All sorts of racing/performance stuff available. The first thing they do is replace the stock valve springs. They race the heck out of these engines and they hold up that's why personally I can see no reason to worry about them "holding up" using them in stock form at stock rpm's as they can take it. I use mobil1 and keep it clean and run it hard..

NR RACING THE LEADER IN HONDA GX & CLONE PERFORMANCE

Mini Bike & Go Kart Parts, Lawn Mower, Chain Saw and Outdoor Power Equipment | OMB Warehouse

Harbor Freight Predator 212 Performance Parts
 

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I have mentioned this in another thread.. I assume the are rating the motor at an RPM higher than 3600 to hit the 6.5 HP. That is the problem with manufacturers rating motors in HP... Peak TQ almost always falls in the useable RPM band for this type of motor, so it is a much better measurement...
 

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I have mentioned this in another thread.. I assume the are rating the motor at an RPM higher than 3600 to hit the 6.5 HP. That is the problem with manufacturers rating motors in HP... Peak TQ almost always falls in the useable RPM band for this type of motor, so it is a much better measurement...
Torque is not a power measurement and to be honest, I hate Briggs and Stratton using it on their engines. I understand why they went to it, but I don't agree with it.


You're right, if the Predator engine can burp out 8.1 ftlbs @ 4250 rpm in stock form then it'll do 6.5 HP.

I don't care how they rate an engine's power as long as they use a unit of power and follow a standard.

It can be Watts, Horsepower,Volt Amps, I don't care. But torque alone isn't one of them. Torque alone as it is on the advertisements is completely useless.


K, I'll stop complaining on the thread.
 

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Buy one jet it a little bit larger you will not be disappointed. I have one on a mini bike and I enlarged opening on the Air box and increase the size of the main jet. it really woke that engine Up. It pulls really hard from the start.
 

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Torque is not a power measurement and to be honest, I hate Briggs and Stratton using it on their engines. I understand why they went to it, but I don't agree with it.


You're right, if the Predator engine can burp out 8.1 ftlbs @ 4250 rpm in stock form then it'll do 6.5 HP.

I don't care how they rate an engine's power as long as they use a unit of power and follow a standard.

It can be Watts, Horsepower,Volt Amps, I don't care. But torque alone isn't one of them. Torque alone as it is on the advertisements is completely useless.


K, I'll stop complaining on the thread.

For some bed time reading go read the SAE link below on measuring motor horsepower.

About - Certified Power (SAE J1349 and J1995) - SAE International
 
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