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Discussion Starter #1
Crud. Figured someone here knows a trick I'm not thinking of yet.

So, I'm trying to remove a carb on a 910965 Ariens, H50 Tec. The nuts for the carb are both spinning the studs, yet the studs are not backing out as I spin the nut with a wrench. I can't help but think the stud or manifold threads got rusty to the point where they don't thread at all any more.

This is a roughly 1971-2 engine, and the previous owner probably hadn't removed the carb in a long, long time. It sat unused for over a decade and overall the blower is in fantastic cosmetic shape, zero rust anywhere. Just ain't been used in a long time.

To me, I have to get some sort of leverage on the carb assembly to pull as I turn, but there isn't room to really apply any pulling force. The two manifold Phillips screws, I can get at one but not the other.

To me, if I can get the studs to start coming out away from the manifold, I can save these all without needing a replacement manifold or tapping new threads etc (hopefully).

So...what trick am I missing here?
 

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Does that engine have the small intermediate manifold between the carb and the block, as in the H70? If so, then there are two sets of bolts - the ones attaching the carb to the small manifold (which are actually loose bolts that it in a recess in the back of the manifold) and also Phillips headed bolts, iirc, that attach the manifold to the block . . . (I think on mine, the star washers were behind the bolt heads, and not the nuts, which may explain why yours spin . . .).

- Tim
 

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Fuel inlet Interferes w/The RH Screw. A Long Thin Screwdriver is what you need to get in there. A little Heat Wouldn't hurt, as long as there's no Gas Present. GL.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Yes, the H50 appears at a glance to be exactly like an H70 in how the carb is mounted.

That second manifold screw, the right side one - that's an acute angle all right. I admit, I didn't try a smaller Phillips because of the large Phillips heads those two have. I needed the largest head Phillips screwdriver I had to get the left one loose.

I'm afraid I'll strip the right side screw - but I'm beginning to think I have no other choice but to at least try it.



Edit - I tried heating it up, still no go. With the proper tipped screwdriver, I cannot get enough torque to turn the screw and endanger stripping the head. With a smaller tipped driver, doesn't hold at all.

All I can think of is somehow cutting the nuts off between the nut and carb mounting base - appears there's star washers between the nuts and carb. It'll mean I'll need new studs and if the manifold threads are bad, maybe that too. This is what I was hoping to avoid - tearing up effectively everything that bolts to the block itself just to remove the carb.

Sigh...frustrating.
 

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Of course penetrating oil, several times a day, then for a few days, maybe different brands, can try a mix of alcohol and auto trans fluid.

Also take the large Phillips and bang it with a hammer as an impact wrench. Also can try an impact wrench, the banging may work.
 

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You're on the right track trying to remove the entire carb/manifold assy from the block.

If I recall for the stubborn ones (specifically the one on the right), I've used a #2 driver bit, put some inward pressure on it using a large screwdriver leveraged against the fuel inlet, then turn the bit with a 1/4" open-ended wrench. The L/S screw should be a straight shot with a long screwdriver.
 

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On occasion I've had a carb where the machine screws were tough and I was going to strip the Phillips head of the screw. I took the manifold off the engine and being in the bench and the rear being more accessible, I was able to put a vise grip on the screw head and a wrench on the nut.
 

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For screws that are hard to get anything into and not moving what I have done on many occasions is take 1 of my old long drift punches that I have ground one side at a 45 degree angle and using the sharp side go to the top left side of the screw and start tapping the drift in a manner that lets it start to bite into the screw ledge and when it has a decent perch then increase hammer hit pressure(not wail or beat) and most times it will spin the bolt or screw. I prefer the the round drifts not only for the length but as well for the rounded cutting edge that you get after grinding , this gives you a high center point on the edge can be relocated in a very small area for max bite/ grip. I do like these instead of chisels just for room and having the edge closer to the center of the punch, so you have more control. I have picked up many drifts at yard sales etc and even hardware dollar sales and now have a complete set from 1/8 " up to 3/8" ground only for this purpose .
 

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Discussion Starter #10
You're on the right track trying to remove the entire carb/manifold assy from the block.

If I recall for the stubborn ones (specifically the one on the right), I've used a #2 driver bit, put some inward pressure on it using a large screwdriver leveraged against the fuel inlet, then turn the bit with a 1/4" open-ended wrench. The L/S screw should be a straight shot with a long screwdriver.
I've been thinking along these lines, either doing this or an angled screwdriver. Waiting for tomorrow when it's 20 degrees warmer.

Jack, I get the feeling I'm going to need your help in a replacement manifold with studs no matter what. I'll post back after I give this issue the ol' college try.
 

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Assuming you get the studs out, let me recommend the insertion of a HeliCoil (stainless steel) so that you can use the same size studs, or maybe a bolt with the same thread.

The engineers must have used studs originally because it's tapped into aluminum and was expected that the manifold would have to be removed and reinstalled multiple times over the life of the engine . . . . and the aluminum threads would be ruined over time.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Well, well, well - my schedule cleared for a couple hours, so I pulled out the ol' college try, and failed... yet succeeded.

I wound up being able to move the screw a bit, but stripped it in the process to where it would move no more. So, tired of wasting time, I got out the Dremel and cut the carb bolts off, which went surprisingly easy.

However, once I extracted the manifold screws, lookie what I found. This is looking from the backside of the manifold. No friggin' wonder the studs were turning. They ain't really studs, at least what I'd call studs.

I'm at a loss what to do now. To me, mounted this way, you have to mount the carb and manifold together, then mount the assembly, odd angle and all.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
And here's what I can't figure out. I have an Ariens with an exact same vintage H70. Didn't have a single issue pulling the carb off that machine. I have to assume they have the same manifold design.

How did they keep the screw studs from turning?
 

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I have taken JB weld high temp extreme 2400 F cleaned up those screw pockets and roughed up (dremel works nice ) then start on backside fill with mixed epoxy toothpick to make sure voids are filled then put on wax paper and finish outer. this stuff can be milled , machined, and tapped for threads, so you can either use bolt from the outside going in or once tapped thread stud with loctite and use nuts there is not much torque required for assembly this has worked really well on old cumcys briggs and kolher unless you are doing restoration and want to keep it original. by the way the JB extreme high temp comes in a small bottle and all you do is mix contents in that same bottle and use. I purchased at auto store around $8.50 the contents are 1 time use so you have to mix the entire bottle at 1 time. maybe 1oz I think.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK...more investigating.

Tecumseh part 34712 appears to be the part this manifold is, at least the modern equivalent. When I google that, Ebay has a NOS with mounting screws. The stud openings are threaded. Unfortunately, those studs/nuts aren't included. Ideally, that is what I would believe would be the best working option, with the studs that fit the threads (cannot figure out what their part # is) as well as the flange gasket and carb nuts.

To me, there's a reason why they went to this design. It appears to be my ideal fix.

I see also, 30195A and 30195 (prior part #'s). I see the carb screws have star washers on them, which must be what holds that screw stud in place when tightened. This must be what I actually have on this machine.

My flange/manifold (official Tecumseh term is carburetor flange) is in good shape, but obviously the star lock washers aren't (in addition to needing new screws too).
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Welp...success!

I was finally able to get to work on this ol' girl this morning, and it me tell you - it was an odyssey.

Of note, for anybody having to go to a Tecumseh carb flange #34712, you better hope the correct screws/bolts/studs etc are with it - because it certainly was interesting figuring out what it needs.

I wound up having to buy 1/4"-20 x 3/4" bolts and mount the carb from the outside instead of with either screws that were 1/4"-28 x 1 1/4 (which is what 30195/A uses) - or possibly a real honest to goodness Tecumseh part that is meant for the 34712.

When you look up any Tecumseh engine that uses this flange (such as the H50/60/70), the parts lookup for the original flange 30195 or 30195A will state "replaced by 34712", but the mounting screws, it still states are 650572...which are the old screws/star washers - these go along with the original star nuts that pair with them and mount from the engine side of the older flange.

Anyway...


Just got everything put back together, carb fully rebuilt (black gunk on the carb and bowl, like gas sat in it a long time) - But it started first pull, woo hoo! Aside from it not wanting to shut down on the throttle very well - but it does shut off - it ran like a champ. The choke and throttle butterflies are still a tad sticky (throttle butterfly/spring doesn't seem to be strong enough to push it all the way closed), and the jets will need some slight tweaking...but otherwise, ran very nice. Ran new hoses, got the proper hose clamps, etc...tank looks perfectly rust free on the inside too.

So...bought this machine on the cheap - it's been repainted "decently" and is rust free (awesome 10 footer), but it was bought as a non runner. Judging from the looseness of the carb box and how freely the carb mounting bolts were, looked to me like the prior owner or a shop tried to fix it, discovered the issues, told the owner it wasn't worth fixing - and he listed it on CL! The ad was 2 months old.

Heck, I bought it for the rust free parts for my 910962 more than anything. The hardest part outside of the research was using those bolts instead of screws/nuts...getting them to start threading on the flange while keeping the gasket/carb/throttle cable/lever assembly all in line. Being outside...my cold, chubby old man fingers just didn't have very good feel nor room to start threading them easily, but once they were started, everything bolted together nicely.

I got maybe tops $25 in parts in it...runs like a champ, all gears shift smoothly, auger turns quietly. An amazingly clean machine overall.

Maybe I should load it up, drive up north to SE Minnesota/NE Iowa - and be a nice guy and plow someone's snow with it tomorrow morning ;) Who knows, maybe this storm will drop south and dump on us (but I doubt it).


Anyway, thanks for all the help/suggestions...absolutely LOVE this website. Pictures to come on the Ariens forum once the weather cooperates (raining off/on at the moment, more coming) and all carb adjustments/re-assembly are sorted out.
 

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If you have not done so already, hit the throttle plate shaft and spring with some carb cleaner. Between the shaft and spring, they tend to get gunky and stick, and typically will free up with a shot of cleaner and working it a bit.

- Tim
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yep, Tim. I have. Certainly loosened up some. I rebuilt the carb last week and it was free after really working the shaft and spring with cleaner.

When I rebuilt it, there was a layer of black scum along the bottom of the carb venturi as you look at it, like gas leaked out over time and sat there for years on end. This is obviously where the bottom part of the shaft mounts. The spring also had some of the black gunk/rust on it too, but I can't spray any more carb cleaner on that, I soaked it thoroughly...it has to be clean enough. I just believe a lot of gunk settled at the bottom pivot of the shaft and for whatever reason doesn't want to come out easily.

This morning, inside my house nice and warm, the butterfly worked fine - turned it open several times, closed 100% on it's own quickly every time. Took it outside into 35 degree weather...firmed up some to where the springs wouldn't return it completely all the time.

I may wind up taking it off again and removing the butterfly and shaft (regretting not doing that when I had the chance the 1st time), for there seems to be a lot of gunk still on that shaft that refuses to come out.

I thought about buying a Chinese carb for it...but I just like to use OEM if I can and rebuild things. It runs fantastic, no popping, no surging, etc. Just doesn't always want to close properly to shut down. I suppose I could merely turn the gas line valve closed if it ever hung up with the carb box on.

I'll figure it out.
 

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Understood. Seems like every time I have an old carb that has sat for a while, that gets sticky . . . . and apparently, I am lucky . . . mine seem to free up well, even an H70 that sat with fuel in it for 15+ years . . . And I agree - I like the OEM/original carbs as long as there is no physical damage, they seem to clean up and run well.
 
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