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Just didn't want the seal damaged .

The chance of you getting another "bum" engine are highly unlikely , they are a good manufacturer .
Check things out , I wouldn't give Toro a dime of your money .
If the dealer had any sand at all, they’d at least help out on parts $ and the tech info. But it sure seems they’re no good at all.
 

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If the dealer had any sand at all, they’d at least help out on parts $ and the tech info. But it sure seems they’re no good at all.
That dealer already had his chance , he should have taken control of the situation and gone to bat for his customer.
Some dealers don't like getting into warranty repairs because it usually doesn't pay as much. A good dealer would but they seem in short supply nowadays.
Word of mouth wins new customers as much as bad loses them.
 

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That dealer already had his chance , he should have taken control of the situation and gone to bat for his customer.
Some dealers don't like getting into warranty repairs because it usually doesn't pay as much. A good dealer would but they seem in short supply nowadays.
Word of mouth wins new customers as much as bad loses them.
This topic is got a lot of issues

I believe herve didn’t 1st go to dealer he purchased from.
He got wrong warranty info from that dealer.

He took engine apart then after that he discovered it was still under warranty he went to purchasing dealer expecting warranty after he took it apart

Biggest issues is operator error as he Didn’t review copy of his warranty that came with machine or ask on here before taking engine apart

Put yourself in a dealers shoes. It’s a canundrum

It’s not his fault for failure but
We as fixers no one enjoys working on machine that someone else has taken apart . Dealers included


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 · (Edited)
In short, the machining and Loncin options were either impossible or impractical, so I had to order genuine Toro parts from a parts place outside of Edmonton. The two Toro dealers I've dealt with in the past are not going to get any more money from me. The parts will take about two weeks to arrive, so I probably won't be posting more until then. After they arrive I'll be posting about my re-assembly of the machine to continue this real-life drama.

In the meantime, thanks again to those of you who have taken the time to become knowledgeable with the details of what's been going on with me, Toro and my machine. I really appreciate it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
I'm back before I said I would because I'm still trying to find a pdf or paper version of my engine's service or shop manual.

During my research of Loncin engines, I found the Loncin LC175F-2, 252cc, 8hp engine on the following website in New Zealand (it takes a few seconds to load up):

One of the few differences between it and my engine is that it does not have electric start. I can tell from the various photos that the block has the "provisions" on it for an electric start, but I think that they would have to be drilled and tapped, which is no big deal. First mine:
Motor vehicle Office equipment Machine tool Cylinder Gas


Now the Loncin:
Automotive design Gas Automotive exterior Automotive tire Automotive wheel system


The view of the operator-end of the end of the Loncin shows that the valve cover is identical to that on mine, as well as that the carburetor seems to be identical.
Digital camera Reflex camera Camera lens Camera Single-lens reflex camera


The photo of the power-output shaft side of the engine proves that the crankcase cover is, essentially, identical to that of mine, except that this Loncin's crankcase cover provides its owner the option of using TWO oil-fill ports (with the top one blocked, as it is on mine).

Camera lens Automotive lighting Reflex camera Digital camera Camera


The Loncin's engine controls are NOT identical to those on mine. The Loncin has a throttle control, while mine has governor-control or the engine speed, so, therefore, the carb on the Loncin might be slightly different than mine, but maybe not. The photo below also makes it higly likely that my recoil housing would fit the Loncin engine.
Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Automotive design Gas Audio equipment


Although it may seem that I'm posting this comment in order to provide an alternative to the Toro-labeled engine (which it does, IMO), the real reason I'm posting this is to motivate me or someone else reading this post to try to find a service/shop manual for the Loncin LC175F-2 engine. I am certain that, for example, all of the torque specifications for this Loncin engine are IDENTICAL to those on the "genuine Toro" engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
I should have added to my last post that because the Loncin has manual throttle-controled engine speed, its crankshaft probably does not have the metal gearwheel that would drive a centrifugal governor-controlled max-engine-speed system (unless engines that have manual throttle control also have a governor). And, therefore, I most likely could not use the crankshaft from the Loncin engine in my engine and still have the governor operate to automatically maintain full-throttle engine speed under load.

If someone (not I, because I've already ordered Toro parts) were to buy the above Loncin engine to replace the OEM engine in their model 38757, that person would have to make a probably-minor modification to the shroud in order to allow him/her/whatever to adjust throttle position, as well as do some modifications to the key ignition switch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
www.loncinindustries.com/en/engine/manualList.aspx?catid=8-20-24-317-322
\

on page 2 2nd from bottom looks to be a 175 series snow engine . Didn't see any shop manuals.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to find that link, nitehawk55. I found the same one and investigated the parts lists of the various LC175 models. As far as I can tell, all of them are "version number: 2011-01", which probably is a date of the version. None of these various models have a head that is designed like mine; the valve cover is a different shape; the cranks are nothing like mine; and the rocker arms are significantly different than mine. (But other than that, they're great!:))

The good thing about those various pdfs is that they all contain the same Loncin email address at the very bottom of the last page -- [email protected] I'll send an email to that address and ask for a service/shop manual for their LC175F-2 and include a couple of photos, just to make sure they send the correct manual, if they actually do (why wouldn't they?). Maybe it'll be undeliverable to that old address. If it is, I'll try to find a current address and do the same.

Thanks again for your effort.
 

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A manual operated throttle set up has a governor too , it takes over when under load.

If a person were to get a Loncin for a replacement I would just switch whatever parts needed.
Of note , the engine you show in your pics has a low oil shutoff.

Yes hopefully they will step up and offer a service manual , something that wasn't hard to get anywhere years ago. We had piles of parts and service manuals in the Stihl warehouse when real books were still a thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
A manual operated throttle set up has a governor too , it takes over when under load.

If a person were to get a Loncin for a replacement I would just switch whatever parts needed.
Of note , the engine you show in your pics has a low oil shutoff.

Yes hopefully they will step up and offer a service manual , something that wasn't hard to get anywhere years ago. We had piles of parts and service manuals in the Stihl warehouse when real books were still a thing.
All of the engines I've worked in in recent years have the governor-controlled throttle, so I did not know that all small engines with manual throttles also have a governor. So the difference between the two arrangements is that the manual throttle engine is able to be idled at low rpm, while the governor-only engine always runs at top-rpm and the governor link opens the throttle-plate to offset the drop in rpm as the engine comes under load. Therefore, maybe the crank in the Loncin would in fact fit in the Loncin/Toro engine. Something to keep in mind.

I did not notice the low-oil shutoff. Good feature.

I agree with you 100% about how things used to be when it came to obtaining parts and service manuals. You'd think that because of the computer revolution, etc. that one could get these manuals in a few clicks, but that's definitely not the case here. How can "Toro Consumer Service" NOT have those engine shop manuals at their fingertips, readly to provide to their customers -- especially to their customers who own equipment that is beyond the warranty period? Are there no DIYrs left in the world? Just as I did in the good old days, today I'd be willing to pay to get a shop manual, either pdf or paper (if the latter even exists) for my engine, but I can't find a vendor. Maybe someone reading this will point me to one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 · (Edited)
Unfortunately, the Loncin email address that I mentioned above no longer works. Shortly after hitting the send button, I received back a "delivery failure notification".

Since that email failure I've been trying to use Loncin's "contact us", fill-in-the-blank page. For some reason I get an error every time I hit the "submit" button, and have to go back to square one.

I just tired sending an email to [email protected] and so far have not received a delivery failure notification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 · (Edited)
Just curious, was the crank output shaft different on that one fro M&D?
I contacted M&D and they couldn't provide me with any further information on the Loncin engine than what was on the link you sent.

But, FWIW, below are a couple of photos from Home Depot in Canada of the PowerSmart Loncin 252cc snowblower. When I compare those photos to those of the Loncin above, I can instantly tell that the PSM's is a different engine. Note the difference between the valve covers, in particular.

Motor vehicle Automotive exterior Gas Auto part Machine

Wheel Tire Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle


Edit on Nov. 24:
Something just hit me as I was eating breakfast. Home Depot Canada sells the Loncin-engine-powered PowerSmart snowblower that I mention in this post. Some Canadians who buy this PSM blower will end up having (the no doubt rare) serious or not so serious engine or other problem and they will almost certainly contact HD about that. I don't believe that HD itself attempts to fix these problems and will instead refer their customers to a local place that will do the fixing. I'll contact HD to find out who fixes this Loncin-powered snowblower locally and then contact that place to see if they have a contact for PSM/Loncin engine service manuals. They must use service or shop manuals, don't you think? (I'm hoping like H that HD's fixer is not one of the two wonderful Toro dealers with whom I've had my wonderful Toro Consumer Service experiences.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Although I was near-certain that the LC175F-2 is in fact the engine in my Toro unit, I have now found proof positive that it almost certainly is. The proof is provided by a Youtube video I stumbled upon a short time ago. You know what to do to view the video:
h..........ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo-pUAzyh9E
I have a few screen-captures from the video that IMO are the proof, but first a couple of photos I took a few minutes ago of my cylinder head's rather unique rocker arm area. Note the "02" on the floor of the head and the "175" on both rocker arms, but more visible on the left.
Motor vehicle Engineering Gas Machine Wood


A close-up of the left arm:
Gas Electric blue Metal Auto part Machine


Now screen-captures from the video. Note the same "02" and "175" on the head:
Tire Wheel Automotive tire Locking hubs Vehicle brake

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Bumper Automotive design


Now my engine head's raised numbers "1914" between the spark plug opening and the rocker arm area:
Bicycle part Wood Hand tool Tool Gas


And the Loncin's same raised number in the video:
Aircraft Gas Airplane Audio equipment Machine


So the Lonin LC175F-2's cylinder head is the one that is on my Toro engine. Here's what I think is another sign that the Loncin is the "Toro" - a raised number cast into the crank at the foundary -- "LC175":
Automotive tire Plant Road surface Asphalt Grey
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
I've just discovered what should have been an obvious difference between the Loncin LC175F-2 and the Loncin/Toro engine -- the former apparently has a 1" OD output shaft and the Toro's is 3/4".

Where the Toro's shaft exits the crankcase cover bearing and oil seal it is just over 1" OD, but is soon after turned down to 3/4" to fit into the paddle-drive system's drive pulley.

So if one wanted to buy the LC175F-2 to replace the OEM Loncin/Toro engine, even if one could actually find it in North America, one would have to have its output shaft turned down to 3/4" and a key-way machined for the drive pulley. This would require the engine to be disassembled so the crank could be put in a lathe and milling machine. One would have to carefully weigh the pros and cons of doing this.

If one really needed a replacement engine fot the OEM Toro but could not afford the OEM Toro, I believe that there is a good chance that the Harbor Freight 212cc, 6.5hp Predator engine, manufactured by Loncin, would fit, but I am not certain of that. It has a 3/4" shaft, but I don't know if the key-way would be correct for the Toro drive pulley.

Regardless of all the above, I'd still like to get my hands on the LC175F-2's shop manual for all of its fastener torque specifications, valve clearances, etc.
 

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The alternative (easier perhaps) is to modify or replace the pulley, versus machining the crankshaft. A Grainger or MCMaster Carr might have the pulley needed readily available.

Forgive me if you’ve posted the pictures, but is that pulley metal or plastic? If metal, any machine shop should be able to modify accordingly, or machine an adaptor to allow it to fit.

Edit: Of course this is all only if for you it’s still an option to replace the whole engine…

I see the pulley is metal: measure your keyway, if it doesn’t match the Predator, take it to a machine shop and see if they can modify the pulley. You’ll also want to verify the mounting pattern and output shaft heights between the two motors, but that is easy enough since you have a motor in hand, and can measure the replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 · (Edited)
The alternative (easier perhaps) is to modify or replace the pulley, versus machining the crankshaft. A Grainger or MCMaster Carr might have the pulley needed readily available.

Forgive me if you’ve posted the pictures, but is that pulley metal or plastic? If metal, any machine shop should be able to modify accordingly, or machine an adaptor to allow it to fit.

Edit: Of course this is all only if for you it’s still an option to replace the whole engine…

I see the pulley is metal: measure your keyway, if it doesn’t match the Predator, take it to a machine shop and see if they can modify the pulley. You’ll also want to verify the mounting pattern and output shaft heights between the two motors, but that is easy enough since you have a motor in hand, and can measure the replacement.
All good points and options.

I thought of the machine-the-pulley option before submitting my last post. I measured the pulley and the problem is that the solid part of the pulley surrounding its hole is not that much bigger than its hole. There is enough material there to create the 1" hole, but the solid area of the pulley surrounding it would then be thinner -- maybe too thin, but maybe not. Doiing that would be taking a chance, but the pulley is probably not that expensive and this option could indeed be attempted before any crank work. The good thing is that it is a, how to put it, wide pulley.

There are other possible problems with an outright replacement engine and you've mentioned a couple. The engine is held tightly into only one position. The drive pulley has to be held in only one vertical and horizontal position. Therefore, the length of the drive shaft has to be of a certain length; the keyway has to be the correct size and the threaded hole at the end of the drive shaft has to be the correct thread and, less important, the correct depth (the bolt could be shortened a bit if necessary if the threaded hole is too shallow). If the centerline of the drive shaft is not the exact correct height, shims could be put under the engine to make it the correct height. Or the base of the engine could be machined or sanded or filed to lose a bit of thickness. I believe that Harbor Freight provides the dimensions of the bottom of the engine, but I'm not positive on that. The pictures of the engine indicate to me that the crankcase cover is identical to mine.

Here's a potential problem. I'm sure people have noticed "exclusive" products at Costco, Best Buy, etc. etc. All of these places promise to "match or undercut" prices on the stuff they sell. Just bring in the other vendor's price and they'll match or beat it by a certain percentage. The problem for consumers is that when they do this, the model number from the other vendor has to EXACTLY match that of the product where you made purchase ........... to the letter or number. But because the thing you bought is "exclusive", it also has a unique model number. So the "price matching" selling pitch is useless ......... to the consumer. It's great for the vendor, though.

The above may apply to engines ---- specifically, the Loncin/Toro engine. Maybe Loncin's crankshaft is "exclusive" to the particular Loncin/Toro engine that is in the 38757 blower. That is, no other Loncin engine or Loncin engine powered piece of equipment has the 38757 Loncin/Toro's crankshaft. That exclusivity costs the consumer dearly, while enriching "Toro".

But there are possible ways around this that both you and I have mentioned. The Predaor is very inexpensive compared to the Toro's. Again, one has to carefully consider ALL the options, including the value of poking Toro in the pocketbook.

Edit:
Necessity is the mother of invention (and creative solutions to practical problems such as lack of adequate funds).
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
I remembered somethng from last night when I measured the drive pulley. What I remembered has turned out to be fairly important when it comes to a possible adapter. First some photos of the drive pulley.
Calipers Measuring instrument Temperature Electronic device Technology


Gas Automotive tire Circle Door Automotive wheel system


Wheel Automotive tire Rim Gas Circle


Calipers Automotive tire Wood Gauge Measuring instrument


Calipers Temperature Material property Measuring instrument Wood


Below is the kicker. Now, what else do we know is 1" OD?
Calipers Scale Wood Gauge Material property



Depth of 3/4" shaft port.
Flooring Font Rectangle Wood Circle


Depth of 1" washer+ bolt port. This is how the pulley is secured to the end of the output shaft.
Flooring Wood Font Handwriting Event


What is the thickness of the "wall" between the two ports? 1.96" - 0.87" - 0.62" = 0.47"

Goal: Convert the OEM pulley into an adapter.

1. Buy another OEM pulley for around $20 US.
2. Cut a carefully- calculated length of the LC175F-2's 1" OD shaft, shortening it appropriately.
3. Drill a suitably-sized hole into the end of the 1" shaft (IMO could be done without removing the crank from the engine, but it's going to be tough to do) and thread it to match that of a much longer pulley-securing bolt.
4. Install the original pulley's 1" ID port over the 1" output shaft. Drill a small hole in the old pulley, over the center of the length of 1" shaft inside the port, perpendicular to the shaft, thread it and screw into it a locking screw that will lock it to the shaft's keyway or flattened surface.
5. Buy or manufacture a short piece of 3/4" shaft that has an end-to-end key-way that is suitable to insert into the new pulley.
6. Drill a hole through the 3/4" shaft, end to end, through which a much longer securing bolt will be pushed. No need to thread it.
7. Install the short piece of 3/4" shaft into the old-pulley-now-adapter.
8. Install the new pulley on the other end of the short 3/4" shaft.
9. Install the new, much longer securing bolt through the OEM 1" OD washer, through the wall of the new pulley, through the hole through the 3/4" shaft and screw it into the newly threaded hole in the 1" shaft.
10. Tighten securing bolt to specified torque.

If I really wanted to use the LC175F-2, I'd take the engine apart and get the crankshaft turned and machined. But I'd first get a good, locked in estimate to do that. Maybe it would be very expensive. If that was the case, I'd go the above adapter route .............. IF there was enough space between where the 1" shaft exits the engine and exactly where the pulley is supposed to be to allow the installation of the adapter plus short shaft plus new pulley, which, now that I look at it, is not enough! Well, it was fun thinking about how it might be done. You either disassemble in order to machine the 1" crank and pay whatever it costs, or find an engine that already has the correct output shaft. Again, it was fun just thinking about.

But wait! Maybe there is another alternative! Buy a 1.25" ID, or very slightly smaller, thick-wall, hard-steel pipe and press it onto/over the old pulley's 3/4" ID / 1.25" OD port end. The tighter the better. Heat it up first if it's too tight; or super-cool the pulley, or both. Cut off any excess. Maybe put a couple of pins through both the pipe and pulley, just to keep both from moving in any direction. Maybe weld the inner end of the pipe to the wall that keeps the belt from jumping off the pulley.

But wait! Maybe use a loose ring with a conical center instead of a piece of pipe and fillet weld between the ring and pulley, from back to front, completely.

Whichever method, now increase the 3/4" hole to 1" and, voila, it will fit a 1"shaft.

But before doing any of this, make sure the hole in the shaft is the right size and thread for the OEM bolt.

Install on shaft. Screw in securing bolt. Done.

There. See what I mean about necessity being the mother of invention? (This is how a happy retired person kills some time on a lazy Thursday afternoon.:))
 
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