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Discussion Starter #1
On a small engine, what's really the point of fuel injection?

These engines run within a very specific RPM range, and are tailored via cam to that condition.

Fuel injection requires a whole bunch of electronics, like a TPS, Temp Sensor, O2, tach. Why interject that complexity on an engine that runs as it runs. Plus, it requires power to start.

IDK, not sure if I like this so called "advancement" . Carbs are so much simpler, and easy to maintain.
 

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Carbs are so much simpler, and easy to maintain.
It's that last part thats debatable! ;)
Most of the time, for most users, carbs are not simple, and they are not easy to maintain.

When was the last time you heard someone say "I wish my car didnt have EFI, carbs on a car were so much simpler and easy to maintain." And when was the last time you had any problem with your cars ignition? ;)

I remember my Dad under the hood of the family car, about 1975, swearing at the carb on his '65 Ford. But im almost 50, been driving 30 years, and I have never once, ever in my life, had any problem with the ignition on any vehicle I have ever owned.

The time has come, some would say its way past due, to put the same technology on small engines.

I have owned my 1971 Ariens for almost 10 years now..the *only* trouble it has ever given me has been..the carb.

Probably 90% of the reason snowblowers and mowers go to the shop, or get put to the curb..the carb.

EFI on snowblowers will likely be a major step forward, and create far more reliable machines. As long as it works reliably, and there is currently no reason to suspect it wont.

Scot
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It's that last part thats debatable! ;)
Most of the time, for most users, carbs are not simple, and they are not easy to maintain.
Neither is fuel injection when you leave gas in an engine. Most carb failures are for poor maintenance. If you maintain fuel injection the same way, you'll have the same problem.

When was the last time you heard someone say "I wish my car didnt have EFI, carbs on a car were so much simpler and easy to maintain." And when was the last time you had any problem with your cars ignition? ;)
Cars, small engines are apples and oranges. The complexity of a car is totally different than that of a small engine. The reason is cars need to perform under a host of different conditions, stop and go, acceleration, etc. Cars also have to get fuel economy. Both are conditions that don't exist for small engines.

In addition, a car requires a battery to start, when you turn the key, an electric fuel pump brings the fuel pressure to 43.5 lbs (3bar) a carb is gravity fed.

Also, where does the power come from to prime the system and start the injection? You have to depend on a pull, battery, or electric start. None of which are good choices.

I remember my Dad under the hood of the family car, about 1975, swearing at the carb on his '65 Ford. But im almost 50, been driving 30 years, and I have never once, ever in my life, had any problem with the ignition on any vehicle I have ever owned.
Fuel injection and ignition are not related. Small engines already have electronic ignition. Two different systems.

The time has come, some would say its way past due, to put the same technology on small engines.

I have owned my 1971 Ariens for almost 10 years now..the *only* trouble it has ever given me has been..the carb.

Probably 90% of the reason snowblowers and mowers go to the shop, or get put to the curb..the carb.

EFI on snowblowers will likely be a major step forward, and create far more reliable machines. As long as it works reliably, and there is currently no reason to suspect it wont.

Scot
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Maintenance costs are going to go up, and over time bad maintenance habits will result in more costly and just as frequent repairs. Injectors go bad too.
 

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meh..
just because you can, doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

Maintenance costs are going to go up, and over time bad maintenance habits will result in more costly and just as frequent repairs.
Will it though? im not convinced that is true at all..
I used the car analogy because I have never, ever, in 30 years, have had any thing ever go wrong with EFI on a car I have owned..and I have never heard of anyone else ever having it either..my cars have never had the EFI break or need service, ever..its never been needed. I have a 1999 Chevy S10, 150k miles, almost 20 years old. EFI has never needed any attention.
2009 Ford Focus, also 150K miles, almost 10 years old, EFI has never needed any attention.

Im sure it happens with cars..but it must be exceedingly rare, I have never personally heard of it happening.
But im willing to bet the rate of carb vs. EFI problems are 99 to 1.
for snowblowers, IMO there is really no way it cant be waaaaaaaaay better than carbs..
carbs are horrible.. ;) its time for them for them to go.

Scot
 

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Also, where does the power come from to prime the system and start the injection? You have to depend on a pull, battery, or electric start. None of which are good choices.
None of those are good choices?
All of those are *excellent* choices! ;)
And if none of those are good choices, then what is the alternative? solar power? coal? ;) I dont understand how a battery or electric start *cant* be a perfect solution..again, its how cars have been doing it flawlessly for 40 years..


Scot
 

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I think this is a reason why many OPE dealers are not so willing to embrace EFI snowblowers. These machines generally sit for long periods of time and therefore carb issues are a bread and butter service item for them.
yeah, thats probably true..for the short term.
But in 20 years dealers probably wont be fixing carbs at all..because they wont exist anymore.

Only us hobbiests using 40 year old snowblowers (60 years old by then) will still be using them. ;)
and we wont need to bring them to the dealer..

and we arent talking about us weird old-school hobbiests in this thread..those of us that dont mind, and even understand carbs..we are an anomaly, very uncommon...dinosaurs even. 97% of snowblower owners dont care about carbs, or EFI..they just want it to work, and they dont care how. EFI is for them, not us.

I see it as inevitable..you cant fight progress.
No one still debates if carbs are better than EFI on cars..they probably did in 1975, but no longer..
It will be the same with snowblowers and mowers in 20 years IMO..when we will all also be riding in our self-driving electric cars.
(which many people also try to deny is coming..but its already here..)

(and whats funny, is that I have taken the "Pro-EFI" side in this debate..and I will never even own one! ;)
My two 1971 Ariens will likely last me for life..)

Scot
 

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My experience with motorcycles, two types of bikers, those who wrench, those who do not. The guys who wrench break down in 2 camps, carb lovers, EFI lovers. Motorcycles that are most reliable IMHO are equipped with EFI.

I prefer a carbed bike and have to tolerate the drama of that system. For a bike, it is more of an old-school organic mindset. I like tinkering with it, and the drama as per the bike backfiring when starting is fun. The sound of a heavy lope of a v twin at idle is music to my ears. the EFI equiped bikes fuel delivery is precise. Thus carbed bikes with high lift cams win in the great sound of a big displacement v twin thumping aggressively at idle. Then again, I do not snow blow with my bike.

If EFI works as good for bikes and cars, I will embrace that technology towards snowblowers. But will have an old school blower or several for sentimental reasons. If EFI is that and a bag of chips, my next new snowblower will have it.

That being said, I think my blowers will out live me.

EFI makes sense to me to lessen drama. If it makes a small engine more efficient and reliable that is progress. If carbed snowblowers are cheaper, they will be around forever as the general public for the most part buy on price not quality. Unlike us on this forum who prefer quality.
 

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Other then the gov acting so quick like its not there i woudnt want efi
10 min to fix a carb if its cooked
 

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Discussion Starter #10
meh..
just because you can, doesn't mean you shouldn't either.



Will it though? im not convinced that is true at all..
It is 100% true. I had a hobby business of doing custom fuel injectors for modified cars, Polaris RZRs, ATVs, etc.... It is 100% true that an injector will gum up if left to sit and not maintained correctly. They won't flow correctly causing problems. You can see it clearly on a flow bench. In car where you have multiple injectors, if one gums up, it's far less noticeable than when your only injector goes to crap.

I used the car analogy because I have never, ever, in 30 years, have had any thing ever go wrong with EFI on a car I have owned..and I have never heard of anyone else ever having it either..my cars have never had the EFI break or need service, ever..its never been needed. I have a 1999 Chevy S10, 150k miles, almost 20 years old. EFI has never needed any attention.
2009 Ford Focus, also 150K miles, almost 10 years old, EFI has never needed any attention.
I'm not talking about reliability. FI is defiantly more reliable, in a car. And there's a lot of reasons for longevity, FI being a contributing factor, not the only factor. Better materials, better design, CAD, CAM, etc.


Im sure it happens with cars..but it must be exceedingly rare, I have never personally heard of it happening.
But im willing to bet the rate of carb vs. EFI problems are 99 to 1.
for snowblowers, IMO there is really no way it cant be waaaaaaaaay better than carbs..
carbs are horrible.. ;) its time for them for them to go.

Scot
FI is a much better solution, for cars. What we are talking about is an engine that runs at a pre defined RMP range that is very narrow, and doesn't have the complex requirements of a car. ALSO, you start and run cars more frequently, no so with small engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
None of those are good choices?
All of those are *excellent* choices! ;)
And if none of those are good choices, then what is the alternative? solar power? coal? ;) I dont understand how a battery or electric start *cant* be a perfect solution..again, its how cars have been doing it flawlessly for 40 years..

I think you are looking for problems, and really reaching to find them..

Scot
I don't see them as good choices because:

1. A battery is something else that has to be maintained, adds weight, and complexity

2. Electric start means you either need a real long cord, or drag a machine back to the garage to start it again

3. Pull start has to energize the fuel pump, and put pressure behind the injector then pulse it, all in the seconds the pull is happening.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Another issue, these small engine injectors go for $60-100. Carbs top out if you buy wrong about $80. Think of all the electrical issues that can happen with multiple connections in snow and salt.
 

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Efi will be the future. It's going to eliminate all of the fuel maintenance problems. That is worth it for most people I would think the life of the machine and ease of use. It will be on all blowers in the near future.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Efi will be the future. It's going to eliminate all of the fuel maintenance problems. That is worth it for most people I would think the life of the machine and ease of use. It will be on all blowers in the near future.

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Yes, it will be, I'm just not so sure that's a good thing. It introduces an unnecessary level of complexity.
 

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Trying very hard not to start a fire under the Christmas tree here,

this is one of the major benefits from air cooled indirect injection diesel engines the fuel goes back to the tank and is kept warm simply by being recirculated and you can use seafoam to treat the diesel fuel too as the winter blends have a fuel treatment or are mixed with kerosene to keep them thinner.

If you put a Hatz recoil start horizontal crank air cooled engine in place of a gas engine with EFI in a snow blower it will perform better as it has a wider power band. The small diesels have either a manual or automatic decompression system so they will start right up and if they are very cold you toss a bucket of very hot water on the side of the engine to warm the engine up and they will fire right up. The small exhaust gas purifiers I mentioned earlier also have a good noise reduction system also.




Merry Christmas
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I think this is a reason why many OPE dealers are not so willing to embrace EFI snowblowers. These machines generally sit for long periods of time and therefore carb issues are a bread and butter service item for them.
Wait till you see the repair bills on fuel injection. One of the reasons they are opposed, is that their mechanics are not trained on FI and it will cost them money to be trained, if they are even trainable. Trouble shooting dollars will skyrocket.
 

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Yes, it will be, I'm just not so sure that's a good thing. It introduces an unnecessary level of complexity.
Efi isn't that complicated I'm pretty sure after trouble shooting a couple it's not going to be rocket science. Fuel pump replacement will probably the main thing. I don't see other parts needing replacement.

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cheap solution if u have a tecumseh lhead, not sure of others, buy as many carbs off ebay @ $10-$20 as u like. in the fall start her up and if it runs like crap then take 5-15 mins to easily swap out the carb for new. or keep old carb by draining fuel out after winter and buying non ethanol gas and/or use stabil for 99% of issues avoided.
if u have problems w/efi there might "not" be a easy and/or cheap solution
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Efi isn't that complicated I'm pretty sure after trouble shooting a couple it's not going to be rocket science. Fuel pump replacement will probably the main thing. I don't see other parts needing replacement.

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In comparison to a carb it is. Lot more connections to have problems with. I like EFI, I made good money from EFI, I just don't know if sub 100HP engines that run a limited RPM range under specific conditions NEED EFI.
 
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