very cool - never dawned on me to use water to pull it out....... should have been obvious I guess. Rather than complain about water being in there when it sits!

 

A detailed explanation and procedure here:

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/2012decethanol.pdf

 

A detailed explanation and procedure here:

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/2012decethanol.pdf

I'm not sure if you ride or not, but MCN is a great motorcycle magazine!

Interesting method to get the ethanol out. Thanks!

 

Thanks! I will pass this along to some of the guys on the old car forums also.....we have had many discussions about what to do and how to circumvent the issues of bad gas!

 

Way cool! I now have another at-home science experiment I can have fun with

 

This is making me wonder how far off Coleman's white gas, is from what we are desiring.

It's shelf stable, in a metal can, and capable of being burnt in duel fuel products....hmmm.

And yes, I did look over on the Coleman website, but found nothing about their fuel.

 

This is making me wonder how far off Coleman's white gas, is from what we are desiring.

It's shelf stable, in a metal can, and capable of being burnt in duel fuel products....hmmm.

White gas has an Octane rating of around 55-60, which might not be good in a high load engine like a snowblower.
The MSDS lists the flash point as less than 0 degrees F. I don't know how far below 0 that is, but if it's really cold, the engine may not be able to start! I know some of us don't keep our blowers in a garage to stay warm, so that could be an issue.

 

http://www.nafaa.org/Coleman_MSDS.pdf

http://www.coleman.com/uploadedFiles/Content/Customer_Support/Safety/lantern.pdf

 

Wow, can't get any easier than that to get the Ethanol out of the gas. here in NJ you can't get ethanol free gas unless you go to the local air field and it is expensive.

 

I'm lucky, my local station has ethanol free fuel as an option. I use it in my blowers along with my collector cars when putting them away for the winter season. Costs over $1.00 more than E85 but worth it for the benefits.

 

I can see a cottage industry starting up in various degrees, and capacities. I hope we can eventually buy a one step kit to remove the alcohol from a gallon or two. I read the show and tell story, and my question is does it matter if you use more water than is used in the story, and will the results be the same? Great thread.
Sid

 

Someone else posted this on another discussion board. I think it is worth repeating here:

"Yes you can wash the ethanol out of gasoline....

However, when you do you will lower the octane of nominal 87 octane e-10 gas to somewhere around 83.5. You will need a LOT of octane booster to get the gas back up to 87. In theory you could start with premium grade gas and wash the ethanol out of it to get residual gas close to regular grade without putting any additives in. Another consideration is what else will you be washing out of the gas. Any component of the gas that has some water solubility will be washed out of the gasoline to some extent. Gasoline is normally a mix of approximately 15% C4–C8 straight-chain alkanes, 25 to 40% C4–C10 branched alkanes, 10% cycloalkanes, less than 25% aromatics (benzene less than 1.0%), and 10% straight-chain and cyclic alkenes (from an ACS reference). All of those components have different solubilities in water, so when you wash out the ethanol you also wash out different amounts of the gasoline components and change the composition of the base gasoline. You will also have the problem of what to do with the solution of ethanol you wash out of the gas. You can't just dump it since it will contain some gasoline components. Finally, washing the ethanol out of the gas will dissolve water into the gas (around 0.5-0.6%). You really should remove that water by filtering the washed gas through water trapping filters.
From a chemistry point of view, the article has some problems since they neglect the positive volume of mixing of ethanol with gasoline and the negative volume of mixing of ethanol with water. They also don't address the effects I mentioned above. That said the basics are correct. Another consideration is that by acquiring the gear you need to remove the ethanol from gas safely you may put yourself on the map for drug enforcement agencies. Just imagine the fun of explaining what you are up to when the local SWAT team raids your garage to find you in there wearing a tyvek suit and respirator while you play with your new chemistry set. "

I plan to stay with TruFuel or VP Small Engine Fuel, it's convenient and my HS928 doesn't use much in a season.

 

Someone else posted this on another discussion board. I think it is worth repeating here:

"Yes you can wash the ethanol out of gasoline....

However, when you do you will lower the octane of nominal 87 octane e-10 gas to somewhere around 83.5. You will need a LOT of octane booster to get the gas back up to 87. In theory you could start with premium grade gas and wash the ethanol out of it to get residual gas close to regular grade without putting any additives in. Another consideration is what else will you be washing out of the gas. Any component of the gas that has some water solubility will be washed out of the gasoline to some extent. Gasoline is normally a mix of approximately 15% C4–C8 straight-chain alkanes, 25 to 40% C4–C10 branched alkanes, 10% cycloalkanes, less than 25% aromatics (benzene less than 1.0%), and 10% straight-chain and cyclic alkenes (from an ACS reference). All of those components have different solubilities in water, so when you wash out the ethanol you also wash out different amounts of the gasoline components and change the composition of the base gasoline. You will also have the problem of what to do with the solution of ethanol you wash out of the gas. You can't just dump it since it will contain some gasoline components. Finally, washing the ethanol out of the gas will dissolve water into the gas (around 0.5-0.6%). You really should remove that water by filtering the washed gas through water trapping filters.
From a chemistry point of view, the article has some problems since they neglect the positive volume of mixing of ethanol with gasoline and the negative volume of mixing of ethanol with water. They also don't address the effects I mentioned above. That said the basics are correct. Another consideration is that by acquiring the gear you need to remove the ethanol from gas safely you may put yourself on the map for drug enforcement agencies. Just imagine the fun of explaining what you are up to when the local SWAT team raids your garage to find you in there wearing a tyvek suit and respirator while you play with your new chemistry set. "

I plan to stay with TruFuel or VP Small Engine Fuel, it's convenient and my HS928 doesn't use much in a season.

All valid points. I'll stick to the E10. I've been using it for years now with no big problems. At this point I'm used to the requirements for storage and stabilization when dealing with E10. I'm not going to start separating gas in my garage and I'm to cheap to use tru fuel. As long as I keep the E10 fresh, which I do, I've been doing ok with it.

 

Very interesting! Now how do you responsibly dispose of the water and ethanol mixture?

 

Toss it on the driveway and let it go away, that's how. My question is where this idea was 5 years ago now that you can fairly easily buy real gasoline even in NY.

 

I will stick with tru fuel also and save the headaches and nonsense. I use about 3 gallons for everything (snowblower and leaf blower). The lawn mower burns through regular weekly so no worries

I have to say even my leaf blower started 2nd pull yesterday in 20 degrees with tru fuel from October. Worked great for light dusting of snow.

 

Does the machine run stronger/better with trufuel?
Or do you guys run it just to prevent E10 related carb problems?
I'm not too concerned about E10 related carb issues if I keep the E10 fresh,
But improved performance IS something that always interests me

 

I don't know if there's any measurable performance difference, but probably not. If there is I don't notice it.

For me it's to avoid having to deal with E10 stability issues.

 

Can't speak for performance but good ole MTBE gas IMO gives mooooar power and economy in vehicle applications compared to corn gas.

 

pretty easy to get an old 5 gallon water jug and fill it up with 3 gallons of gas add some water shake or stir to get the ethanol and water to settle and then just use a normal gas siphon to siphon the water off the bottom and then you have 3 gallons of ethanol free gas in just 10 minutes. You could even use a 5 gallon bucket but it think it would be easier to see the water in the bottom of the water jug.

 

Keep in mind ethanol raises octane so if you use 87 octane fuel and remove the ethanol, it may to dangerously low in octane.

 

For those running TruFuel, do you run dry during the offseason, or just stabilize and leave the tank and carb alone.

 

I do nothing. Just shut it off. Trufuel does NOT need stabilizer for storage. Its a one pull start up next season

 

I'm glad most of you appreciated the idea. I posted it mainly to give some of you an alternative to buying aircraft-grade gas at aircraft-grade prices. In Canada, we are lucky enough to have no-ethanol options, albeit few... so I too wouldn't play around with "de-ethanoling" my gas if I can already buy it ethanol-free at the pump. This being said, if they ever stop selling it, I may have to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I suffer from the problem of having more free time than money, lol!

As for additives that may wash out of the gas, I put Lucas upper cylinder lube (oil) in all my small engine gas anyway, so it will keep it lubed up when operating. In the past, I've read articles saying that a lot of additives in today's gas (besides ethanol) can cause their own set of issues in the long run (such as reacting with certain rubbers or plastics, etc), so having them wash away and running pure gasoline is not necessarily a bad thing either.

Another consideration is that by acquiring the gear you need to remove the ethanol from gas safely you may put yourself on the map for drug enforcement agencies. Just imagine the fun of explaining what you are up to when the local SWAT team raids your garage to find you in there wearing a tyvek suit and respirator while you play with your new chemistry set. "

Now that is just crazy talk... having been in law enforcement for many years, I can tell you that this is as likely to happen as an alien abduction! Your local SWAT has far better things to do than bust your garage or shed door open in order to catch you removing ethanol from government-regulated gas... time to get that tin foil hat a rest!

 

I just had a terrific idea. It's been about 8-30° here the last few days. This would make separating the water so much easier. Just do the mix and let the water freeze in the bottom of the container. What do y'all think? Will the trapped ethanol freeze with the water?

 

:icon-shrug: Not sure about that , interesting question. I have "heard " about :icon_whistling: folks that make their own beverages sometimes keeping it out on the porch in the winter. Skim the ice ( water ) off the top as the alch does not freeze as easily. :icon-shrug:

 

That's a very interesting question and supposition, so I Googled "freezing point of ethanol".
Basically it appears it is dependent upon the concentration of ethanol in the solution. The higher the percentage of ethanol requires a lower temperature to freeze.
From what I'm reading 10% ethanol will freeze at 25 degrees F. / -4 degrees C.

I guess it would be easy enough to check by first checking the volume of settled out water/ethanol in a measuring beaker, freezing the solution, pouring off the gas, and thawing the remaining contents and measuring again to verify the volume. If the before freezing ethanol water volumes are equal (or close) to the thawed volume after gas pour off, I would seem reasonable to assume one could separate ethanol/water in this fashion. If so, it would be incredibly simple to do......or so it would seem.

Check out the following links:

Ethanol Freeze Protected Water Solutions

Ethanol-water freezing point calculator | AlcoDens

 

My thought is if there is a good amount of water the ethanol will be so diluted it'll simply freeze with the water.

 

based on that chart it surely is not feasible to try to freeze the water/ethanol mix. i say add 10% by volume of water then siphon off the 20% which should be ethanol/water mix on e10 gas.

 

It would be slow process but it could be done. 12.8% ethanol/gal. To get it to freeze at 25° you'd have to add a gallon of water to a gallon of gas if my math is correct and it may very well not be. I married my math tutor. Seriously. I'm horrible at math.

 

Well, it seems to me the math elements are as follows:

1 gallon = 128 fl. oz
10 % ethanol per 128 fl. oz = 12.8 fl. oz

It would seem at 25 degrees F, 12.8 fl, oz of ethanol would (should) be frozen at the bottom of 1 gallon of gas containing 10% ethanol.

Any chemists on this forum, to lead us by the hand through this discussion???